Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

A word about VO headsets

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

A word about VO headsets

Old 05-19-19, 11:55 AM
  #76  
retrofit
4.6692016090
 
retrofit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Monterey Peninsula, California
Posts: 1,718

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why.
I keep coming back 'cause I want to see pics of the split races, moot or not.
retrofit is offline  
Likes For retrofit:
Old 05-19-19, 12:02 PM
  #77  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,831

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2287 Post(s)
Liked 2,031 Times in 1,245 Posts
Originally Posted by Kuromori
Plenty of older non-split alloy cartridge crown races. It's split because it makes installation and removal trivial, and a crown race seat slightly out of spec doesn't really matter, that's it. No special tools, no nonsense. Sometimes I'll split them myself if they don't come that way.
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
clubman is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 12:56 PM
  #78  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 3,291

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,204 Times in 700 Posts
Originally Posted by SamSpade1941
VO does not make a sealed bearing french headset pretty easy to verify on their website. I still do not understand why this is being debated when its been established already.
Well, you opened the thread with the notion that VO products are somehow defective. I understand the tone here got a little out of hand, but it would actually be very useful and helpful if we could see the items to evaluate for ourselves, since many of us put our trust in this company’s products. You mentioned that you would not only retrieve your bike, but also the failed races. Could we see those, please?
noobinsf is offline  
Likes For noobinsf:
Old 05-19-19, 02:39 PM
  #79  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,171

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 846 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
A split crown race seat never touches the balls or rollers, that would be a split crown race, which does not actually exist as a production item.

The split crown race seat is only ever a good idea if the seating area is tapered such that the cup or cartridge bearing itself positively prevents the fit on the steerer from opening up and presenting looseness. In that case, the split in the crown race seat can do no harm as the taper imparts an inward force all the way around the crown race seat, thus preventing any looseness from ever developing between the crown/steerer and the crown race seat.
dddd is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 03:03 PM
  #80  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,831

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2287 Post(s)
Liked 2,031 Times in 1,245 Posts
Got it. I've never installed a split race seat before. Too new for me.
clubman is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 03:43 PM
  #81  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,932

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26250 Post(s)
Liked 10,232 Times in 7,101 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
...it was one of those off the wall statements we see here from time to time. As stated by @dddd, and suspected by you, you "split" a race for "ease of installation" on any headset that uses either loose or caged bearings at some risk to the longevity of your installation.

Cartridge bearings, OTOH, contain both bearing and races in one handy disposable package. A split "crown race" in that instance serves as a stop and support for that cartridge, and as already stated, is machined in such a way that the bearing cartridge compresses it and holds it in place pretty firmly. It's not really a race, because it never touches a bearing....but it gets the same name because it goes in the same place we're used to putting a race.

But don't pay any attention to me, I'm only here out of curiosity.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 03:45 PM
  #82  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 2,475

Bikes: 1974 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked 794 Times in 452 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why.
I keep coming back to find out if the "split" was manufactured into the part (a split ring seat for the bearing) or whether the mechanic broke the darned thing or thought the split was damage but is a design feature.

There is just so much wrong with this thread. It's like staring at a car accident.

You know you shouldn't stare or even look.

You know you should look away.

You just can't.
Bad Lag is offline  
Likes For Bad Lag:
Old 05-19-19, 03:46 PM
  #83  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 2,475

Bikes: 1974 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked 794 Times in 452 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
It is not a bearing "race". It is a split ring seat for a sealed bearing.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 05-19-19 at 06:02 PM.
Bad Lag is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 03:57 PM
  #84  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,932

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26250 Post(s)
Liked 10,232 Times in 7,101 Posts
...for the ambitious among you, you can Google up an image search for Velo Orange headsets that shows both the more commonly encountered Gran Cru headset and the French threaded ones. I did it a couple of days ago, out of curiosity.

Veo Orange just rebrands and sells stuff that other people make for them (obviously), so they have sold a lot of different sorts of headsets over the years. It's nice to have access to a (relatively) reasonably priced headset that will fit on a French standard bike. But the stack height is a real problem in a lot of applications.

For a cartridge bearing headset, the other one, the Gran Cru, is not badly priced either. I would guess it's gonna get harder and harder to find 1" headsets of good quality, as demand for them continues to decline because it's an old standard. I was crushed when I found out I couldn't buy the 1" Sronglight ones on Ribble (Wiggle ?) any more.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 04:01 PM
  #85  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,932

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26250 Post(s)
Liked 10,232 Times in 7,101 Posts
Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Caged Bearing 1" French

3alarmer is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 04:24 PM
  #86  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,108
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times in 155 Posts
I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
jethin is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 04:35 PM
  #87  
retrofit
4.6692016090
 
retrofit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Monterey Peninsula, California
Posts: 1,718

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
And No One is at home
retrofit is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 05:01 PM
  #88  
Kuromori
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 83 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
Cartridge bearings, because the crown race isn't actually a race. I was merely pointing out that they fact that cartridge bearing headset crown races aren't split because the crown races things are delicate, but because it's just a much easier design to deal with all around.
Kuromori is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 05:08 PM
  #89  
Kuromori
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 83 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd
A split crown race seat never touches the balls or rollers, that would be a split crown race, which does not actually exist as a production item.

The split crown race seat is only ever a good idea if the seating area is tapered such that the cup or cartridge bearing itself positively prevents the fit on the steerer from opening up and presenting looseness. In that case, the split in the crown race seat can do no harm as the taper imparts an inward force all the way around the crown race seat, thus preventing any looseness from ever developing between the crown/steerer and the crown race seat.
The crown race seat is what the 26.5mm part of the fork is called though, and the conical thing that the bearing sits on will almost always be called a crown race by manufacturers, whether or not it's actually a race. If you had to come up with a technical name for it, it would be something like cartridge bearing crown race seat adapter.
Kuromori is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 06:37 PM
  #90  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,171

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 846 Posts
If we can home in on a best name for the "crown race seating ring"(?) I have to say I got the "ring" part from Bad Lag's wording.

And yeah, with a cartridge bearing headset I have also often heard of it being called just a "crown race" in that context.

And we're still itching to see a photo of the broken parts, i.e. the nature of the fracture. It's possible to harden a lower grade or lower purity of steel that then would then have relatively low tensile strength and/or would have weak spots where a fracture could develop.
dddd is offline  
Likes For dddd:
Old 05-19-19, 07:52 PM
  #91  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,831

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2287 Post(s)
Liked 2,031 Times in 1,245 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd
If we can home in on a best name for the "crown race seating ring"(?) I have to say I got the "ring" part from Bad Lag's wording.
What does Grant Petersen call it?
clubman is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 08:15 PM
  #92  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,108
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
What does Grant Petersen call it?
I heard that if GP stares at a crown race long enough it splits itself.
jethin is offline  
Likes For jethin:
Old 05-19-19, 09:17 PM
  #93  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,831

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2287 Post(s)
Liked 2,031 Times in 1,245 Posts
Does that make him the Lord of the Ring?

groan
clubman is offline  
Old 05-19-19, 09:38 PM
  #94  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,496

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2401 Post(s)
Liked 4,350 Times in 2,075 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
Does that make him the Lord of the Ring?
Not unless there's a picture of it.

-Kurt
__________________












cudak888 is offline  
Likes For cudak888:
Old 05-20-19, 12:51 PM
  #95  
Bill in VA
Senior Member
 
Bill in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 727

Bikes: Current: 2016 Bianchi Volpe; 1973 Peugeot UO-8. Past: 1974 Fuji S-10-S with custom black Imron paint by Stinsman Racing of PA.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times in 142 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Which part is breaking? The crown race? It is machined a touch undersize? If it is the crown race, have you (or the shop) checked the fork? Now that you have a headset that works, this is a moot point but if the fork is oversized, this may come up again.

Now, if the part that broke isn't the crown race, forget everything I said.

Edit: Just noticed this is a Motobecane. French. I don't like to bad-mouth bikes based on country origin, but those of us who have worked on French bikes have learned to expect everything when it comes to adherence to standards. I owned two Peugeots and spent a summer assembling Motobecanes and Peugeots.
Since he said NOS Motobecane, I assumed one of the newer Asian models and was going to comment on the French headset remark. I would love to find a NOS Peugeot PX-10E.
Bill in VA is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 12:54 PM
  #96  
specialmonkey
Fillet-Brazed Member
 
specialmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 488

Bikes:

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by jethin
For the record don’t think Tange makes a French hs. Feel free flame me if I’m wrong.

Off topic a bit, but I've wondered how important it is to have a very secure/tight crown race. My suspicion is that as long as it’s at least hand tight it’s prob fine if the hs is properly adjusted. See above re: flames.
That is a good point

How about a Stronglight? They must have some French threaded ones? Needle bearings are kind of cool, even if my mechanic says he doesn't like them (though the one below is cartridge bearing)
https://www.amazon.com/Stronglight-C.../dp/B0067KTXYQ
specialmonkey is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 05:54 AM
  #97  
BFisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,336
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,897 Times in 889 Posts
Originally Posted by SamSpade1941
I just ran into this problem last night so all was for naught. I am back to square one now.

ETA I am now going to be forced to buy another french headset NOS or just buy a whole different fork that is not french and use one of my other headsets ( I have several Shimano 600 and a couple of XT headsets in my bin) .
@SamSpade1941,
Not sure if this interests you, but just stumbled upon these on eBay:
French Headset
No connection to seller. Calls out 44mm stack height and 27.0 crown race, so might work for you if you can snag a race to fit your fork.
BFisher is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
nayr497
Bicycle Mechanics
14
03-27-18 09:35 AM
the lobster
Bicycle Mechanics
3
08-11-12 04:59 PM
TheOtherGuy
Classic & Vintage
1
12-30-11 08:21 PM
Ebbtide
Bicycle Mechanics
3
08-17-10 06:05 PM
MooCow
Bicycle Mechanics
12
07-24-10 08:51 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.