m2244

Hello,

So I asked a question here a few days ago about choosing a bike. Thanks to the many suggestions from people on this site I narrowed it down to a gravel bike and was leaning toward a Niner. I've since learned that they filed for bankruptcy, which is probably old news to most people here.

Anyway, would it make sense to buy the bike even though their fiture may be up in the air?

Witterings

If it's the bike you want I can't see why not .... granted if the frame was faulty you'd have a problem getting a replacement under warranty but most of the other parts are non specific to them i.e. Shimano / Sram ... if you're buying it from a store I'd ask them about the warranty and see what they say.

Never know you might be able to pick one up cheaply and may get a bargain.

Shame to see a company like that going to the wall though!!

Juan Foote

I hate to hear that as well. I strongly considered a Niner at one point.

BobbyG

Niner is still in business.
In fact they recently announced they are increasing their global marketing.

According to Wikipedia: In November 2017, Niner Inc. filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection ahead of a planned acquisition by an investor group. Several months later, in March 2018, Niner announced they had been acquired by UWHK Ltd., a Hong Kong-based investment firm known for owning Huffy Corp.

I'm not connected to the company, other than sharing a home state, but the OP's question made it seem like they had ceased operation, and that is not the case...although they may be somewhat different since their sale to UWHK.

jefnvk

Meh, short of a frame issue there isn't really much I'd count on a warranty for fixing anyhow. Buy it if you want it.

TimothyH

Niner's future is not "up in the air."

They have new ownership, that's all.


-Tim-

Garfield Cat

The brains behind the Niner company is what (who) you want to follow. Companies may go away, get acquired, etc. But its the people who may eventually restart in a more leaner way.

ogmtb

m2244

No, it doesn't always mean they are going out of business, sometimes they do, sometimes they come out the other end in worse shape. This is the reason I was asking the question, to get a feel for what's going on since I know very little about the bike industry. Now to say that people "can't grasp" a concept lends an air of arrogance, which is something humans often do to make themselves feel good.

Doctor Morbius

ksryder

To be fair, I worked in bankruptcy law for years and there's still a lot about it that I don't get.

But yeah, corporate bankruptcies are a special breed. In this case it was simply a means to an end to facilitating a sale of a company. It happens all the time. As others have said, Niner is fine.

jefnvk

bobwysiwyg

Heck, our president used it routinely in his business practices, must be OK, eh?

ogmtb

You just proved my point.

jefnvk

Are you actually going to argue that bankruptcy does not often lead to the company no longer existing?

Sure, there are many other outcomes to bankruptcy, but pretending that the company closing isn't a very real outcome of the situation would indicate you are as misguided as those you are putting down. Or, to put it another way, how many shares of Sears are you willing to buy right now? Yes, if I am making a significant financial decision, the financial health of the company is indeed a consideration. It may be overweighed by other considerations, but it would be silly to simply dismiss.

And because I like stats backing up my argument, Forbes statement on Chapter 11

ogmtb

As the Forbes article shows, it's more common for businesses filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection to not go out of business.

Anyone who actually reads the Niner filing should understand that it was a pretty standard reorganization, not a Chapter 7 filing or a Chapter 11 filing that was likely to be converted to 7, i.e. going out of business.

jefnvk

I don't know what you are comparing it to, but I'd call a 25% success rate pretty dismal (and this was the most generous source I could find, other sites estimated the number closer to 10-15%).

And even if I want to assume that a company will survive just fine, that they are just going into bankruptcy to make themselves more financially appealing for a takeover, then considering the fact they are being taken over would still fall under due diligence for consideration on a sizeable financial decision, and how the new owners are going to run the business and provide support in the aftermath. The fact is that companies can't and don't end up in bankruptcy court without some sort of serious financial issues, if I am entering into a purchase that requires their continued support, their financial situation is a very real consideration on my purchase decision. To suggest one shouldn't take it into consideration either tells me it isn't a serious financial decision or you aren't the wisest about your money.

ogmtb

This is a deeper dive, with actual data:

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi...49&context=mlr

ksryder

I don't have access to PACER any more but from what I can tell the Niner bankruptcy case was closed in August. That means the company is no longer in bankruptcy.

Whether or not the company survives in the long term is another question. But as of today the company survived bankruptcy because it still exists and the bankruptcy is done.

TimothyH

Not all bankruptcy is the same.

I'm open to correction here.

Chapter 7 is when you walk away and your assets are auctioned to pay the creditors. This is not what Niner did.

Chapter 11 is for restructuring debt so that it can be paid off over time. This is often used as a tool to facilitate very rapid transfer of assets to a buyer or investor, much faster than a normal sale. The purchase or investment is part of the the debt restructuring plan. The plan is submitted to the judge, the judge approves it and done. Rapid transfer of assets sometimes makes a company very attractive to a buyer who can take ownership very quickly. This is exactly what Niner and their new owners did.

Creditors get paid. Employees keep jobs. Niner keeps making bikes. Customers keep shredding gnar. New owners (hopefully) guide the company into profitability and make a few bucks moving forward.

The downside to Chapter 11 is risk. An unwanted buyer can sometimes step in, snatch the company, part it out, sell off the assets or turn it into a completely different company. Niner and the new owners probably had it all planned out ahead of time.

Anyway, they are building a European distribution center so my guess is that they don't plan on closing any time soon.


-Tim-

Ogsarg

This is how you sell your company and not have to pay your suppliers. New company purchases out of bankruptcy for peanuts and only buys assets. Purchase price doesn't begin to cover debt so some major creditors (usually banks) get some money and everyone else is SOL.

TimothyH

Lots of ignorance on this thread about bankruptcy, chapter 11 and Niner's particular outcome.


-Tim-

veganbikes

So maybe steering it back from boring old economics to bikes which are way better ; )

Have you ridden the Niner? Did you like it? Have you ridden anything else and did you like that? Is there anything in particular you are looking for to slay the grav grav?
If you did really like the Niner after riding it and it ticks all the boxes for you, then go for it. If it isn't maybe ticking all the boxes or you didn't wholly like the ride maybe try something else.
I bought a Foundry Chilkoot and that company is out of business but I really liked the bike and it ticked some major boxes mostly a Ti road bike with carbon fork and Di2 compatibility so I went with it and couldn't be happier (ok I could but that would have cost me many thousands of dollars but with the amount spent I am quite happy)

downhillmaster

Filing for any type of bankruptcy is not a good thing for a niche bicycle brand.
I personally would still consider Niner
if I was in the market for a steel road bike but some of the replies in this thread are ridiculous.
Healthy and thriving niche companies do not file bankruptcy as part of a sale/re-structuring.
Quite often though, borderline struggling companies do.

jefnvk

And even if I bump that up to a 75% success rate, a one in four chance of closing is still a very real possibility, even when the cases have been weeded down to a favorable sample. Of course, everyone has the innate knowledge and the desire to dig through court documents when a case is first filed to know if all the qualifiers that were put on the "successes" in that document apply to the company in question.

My sole point in all of this was it is silly to say that the status of a company in bankruptcy should be ignored when making a decision to buy a product. It remains that. Feel free to think of me as uneducated because I wouldn't just ignore that when making my own purchasing decisions if it makes you feel better.