Veloduo

Wife and I have had the tandem for a couple of years now. We're good riders. I was an experienced captain before. She's an exceptionally good stoker -- neutral, relaxed, reads the cranks well, puts the hammer down at the appropriate times, and is an excellent extra set of eyes and ears. Very trustworthy and trusting. Really, short of having Leontien Van Moorsel's wattage output, couldn't ask for a better stoker.

Soooo, I wonder if you all can help me with what I perceive as a small problem. In the two years we've been riding two-up, we've tasted the tarmac exactly twice: once about a year ago while crossing a low water crossing here in Central Texas. We'd been experiencing some unseasonably warm weather -- I'm talking 90s -- and I grossly underestimated the amount of algae that would have accumulated on the pavement in 1-2 inches of meandering water in April. Stoker shifted her weight just as our rear wheel entered the water. Like we were riding on ice -- down we went at very low speed. No worries, a little wet and one or two tiny scrapes for the pilot, but wife landed hard on her hip bone and was badly cut and bruised. She trooped the remaining 20 miles to the truck, but it shook me that she was as banged up as she was. Wrote it off to bad luck.

Then last night. Early evening, still plenty of daylight, on our normal 25-mile before-dinner loop. Climbing at a moderate pace up the dam at the nearby reservoir. Somebody walking his springer spaniel off the leash. Dog took off, I just saw him coming out of the corner of my eye as he kamikazed across our path, right at our front wheel, and stopped. We were doing about 16-17 mph and couldn't stop. T-boned the dog, and we went right over. Again, I was dinged only slightly -- scrape on my ankle bone, scraped elbow. Wife hit her hip, shoulder, head (helmet, TG), knuckles, ankle bone. She was bleeding like she'd been shot. She was basically fine, just some deepish cuts. And you know, she kept telling me she was OK, over and over, and that she was't afraid, and she wanted to ride home, etc., etc. Man, I love her. She is tough. (She just emailed me asking if I was ready to ride when we get home from work!)

My question: is this just bad luck, or do stokers inherently suffer because they don't see the fall coming? Wife claims she saw the dog and considered shouting, but her instinct was that she'd startle me, or the dog, or both of us, or something. Given this, I'm tempted to think that she has to kind of learn HOW to fall -- I know that sounds ridiculous -- but I remember having these kinds of conversations with my racing mentors back in the day. "Learn to relax and just go with the fall, don't fight it, don't try to brace yourself, etc."

I certainly accept responsibility for both incidents. Captain of the ship and all that. But what are we doing wrong if she keeps getting the worse end of it?

Thanks, yall.

Veloduo

Oh, and BTW, bike was fine both times...go figure.

dubbelop

We do a fair bit of off-roading on the tandem. And yes, the stoker suffers more from crashes. We feel the captain has more "insight" in what's going on, even when the bike unexpectedly slips like you did on the algae. Therefore, the captain's reaction time is shorter which gives better chances for coming out relatively unscathed. Also, the back end of a falling/sliding/flipping tandem makes a bigger turn than the front end (at least I think so).
And for the record: in the first years of off-roading I mashed my dearest stoker (who BTW resembles yours in her moves and flexibility on the bike) into the odd tree and rock. But in 2003, we fell hard for the first time. In a slight left hand turn down the Ballon d'Alsace (France), the rear tire suddenly blew. In retrospect, this was because the sidewall had degraded far more than I ever managed to notice - sheer negligence, your Honour Anyway, we ended up with a dachshund with a broken leg, a wife/stoker with two fractured ribs and me with ...... well ....... two bruises

TandemGeek

IMHO, and based mostly on observing road & off-road tandem crashes as well as first handoff-road tandem crash experiences, Stoker's will almost always get the worst of it when a tandem goes down:

- They must react to what the captain (you) and bike are doing, which means they are already "late" when attempting acts of self-preservation.
- They have no way off the bike, most always end up riding it down, and end up with 1/2 their body pinned under the frame, unlike the captain who can sometimes escape over the handlebars or get out from under the frame.
- They have no forward visibility between 11:00 - 1:00 and cannot, therefore, do much to adjust their posture or movements to minimize contact with whatever lies ahead or to time contact with the ground.
- Based on all of the foregoing, they instinctively go rigid while bracing for the impact, which often times makes injuries worse.

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Added:

Note: You'll find photos of a "mild" crash in progress at the following link: https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...27&postcount=1

Take note of the very different body positions on the way over and just after hitting the ground and, no, it just looks like I'm on top of Debbie... she's actually two-feet behind me.

Veloduo

really appreciate the experienced comments. Mark, I especially value your observations. Glad to know I'm not the only guy out here trying to wear out a highly-valued stoker.

Any other comments will be most welcome.

Veloduo

Follow-up questions: Why do stokers always stroke us by telling us over and over that they're OK after we give them some dirt or chip-seal for dessert? And why are great stokers always named Debbie?

wsurfn

I am glad you guys are O.K. Over the last 5 years Austin roads are getting covered with a nasty rough asphalt surface. I think Todd Baxter helped us get this... I hope you guys were not on it. It will really rip your flesh. I hate that my kids have to grow up learning to ride on it.

Your right, your stoker rules. Treat her right.

Old Hammer Boy

Boy, am I glad my stoker doesn't participate in these forums!! Remember, the stoker's never wrong...

72andsunny

I usually manage to kick the Mrs. in the head as we fall...

TeamTi700

Veloduo,

After riding a Trek T200 for a couple years, we bought a new Santana TeamTi700 in March of 2001. Two weeks later we T-boned a dog that was going for my ankles and changed it's mind at the last second. Being Michigan, and March, we were well dressed. We both ended up with very sore ribs, shoulders, and heads. The couple we were riding with were on the maiden voyage of their new Santana Sovereign. They were able to avoid us, and being only a couple miles from their house, they gave us a ride home.

We were traveling about 17 mph when we went down and suffered equal injuries (the dog was uninjured). The homeowners insurance of the dog's owner was responsible for replacing our broken helmets, damaged clothing & damaged components.

Since that day we have put almost 20,000 miles on our tandem without incident. I believe that you simply had some bad luck. If it were possible to prepare completely for any event, we wouldn't need helmets.

Rick

zonatandem

Have had a few "hits" by motor vehicles and also hi-speed road crash.
Descending steep local hill at 30+ mph our chain bounced inexplicably and jammed between smallest cog and rear dropout.
Result: instant stop, no warning.
Pilot instinctively did his paratrooper roll; stoker cannot roll as the pilot's in the way and invariably tends to go down with the tandem.
Damageas follows: pilot, huge hematoma on the hip. Stoker: hefty road rash from ankle to head including big black eye; helmet undoubtedly saved the rest of her head an no concussion.
Bike: Due to instant deceleration something had to give, and front wheel pretzled.
Four days later, with a new wheel, we were doing a 200-mile 3-day loop at the Grand Canyon (one very tough little stoker!).
Even in a hit by a car and one by a truck, stoker got the worst of it (yes, drivers were ticketed).
In our 30+ years of road tandeming the crashes have been minimal with no broken bones or permanent injuries.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

ElRey

You'd have a real hard time proving that. It may be the way you handle the bike!!!

Litespeed

Being the stoker and having done some of my own falls on my single, this doesn't feel real good to me. Guess I will just have to trust my Captain and hope for the best.

ken cummings

My stoker is inherently at higher risk, just look at a picture of a Counterpoint Tandem. I did drop a blind stoker once when I was stopped. He shifted his weight too suddenly for me to hold him. My regular stoker is terrified of steep hills. Fair enough, she is in front with no brakes. I would like to take a small stoker with a camera down a hairy great hill. A true F ticket ride.

stapfam

Contrary to the replies on this question, I am the stoker and in our numerous falls- I come off best. Perhaps it is years of falling off the solo, but I have either rolled away cleanly, or I have managed to roll up on the Tandem with the fallen side pedal high so that I am not in contact with the track, and the stokers bars keep my body away aswell. I never put out a foot or arm to ease the fall, but they happen so quickly, that there is never time to do this in any case. My pilot is the one taking the brunt of the falls and on one memorable fall last year at high speed on a rough downhill, he finished up cuddling me round the neck to protect me. How that happened neither of us know, but torn hand ligament through trying to keep the bar straight and aches all over the body for a week after. I was fine.
Then on the few occasions I have piloted and had a fall- I have definitely come off worse with clothing being damaged and once a pulled calf muscle- 20 miles from home that did not allow me back on the bike for a further 3 weeks.

I must admit that practice must make perfect as we generally fall off on most rides at some point but I also do that on the solo too.

zonatandem

Saw a spectacular two tandem crash in about 1978 or '79 at a Kangeroo Baggs event in CA.
Bunch of tandems were not paying as much attention as they should have, and two tandems plowed into each other.
Stoker on the one tandem Jumped up and clear off the tandem . . . spectacular; the other stoker and 2 captains went down. Result some bent wheels, and a ruined weekend by inattention, for a couple tandem teams.

cornucopia72

What does it mean to "T-bone" a dog?... and more importantly: What is one supposed to do if running over a dog is unavoidable?

TeamTi700

"T-bone" is to hit at a 90 degree angle. Usually my front wheel & the dog's ribcage. If you have to run over the dog, or any animal, protect your stoker first is the only advice I can offer.

mudmouse

This thread is disturbing!

NewbieIATandem

Being a newer captain all I want to say about all these s is...


LA LA LA, I'M NOT LISTENING, LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LA LA LA

Veloduo

Amen. And I LIKE dogs...

TeamTi700

I love dogs too. And that's why we don't have one. We spend too much time on the tandem (or other outdoor adventures) to have a dog sitting home waiting for us.

Rick

PGH94

I'm also glad my Stoker doesn't read these forums. I'm having a hard enough time getting her to relax!!

Trsnrtr

My wife and I have ridden 23 years on our tandems and never crashed, though we did get hit by a deer once. Note that I said the deer hit us, actually the stoker; we didn't hit the deer.

Veloduo

"I said the deer hit us, actually the stoker"

Case closed. Hate to be there when the odds catch up with you. Good luck!