Ride-Fly

What are the options for these types of brakes? The most obvious are Paul Racers and Compass CPs. Any others worthy of consideration? Between these two, any opinion on which is the better brake?

Are the braze-on post positions a universal fit for all of these types of brakes? Once I have the posts installed on the frame, can I use Pauls, Compass, or the other potential options?

Thanks.

Salamandrine 

Other options would be Gran Compe 450 or 610, both of which are in current production, and Mafac, which are not. The Dia Compe types need special springs I believe, if used with braze on fittings. Same would go for vintage Weinmann, if you want to use them. (virtually identical to Dia Compe)

RE Universal fit - Ideally you want to know the brakes you will use as well as the wheel and tire size beforehand, but that said you should be able to use Mafac, Compass, or GC 610 on the same post AFAIK, though the latter need special springs. Don't quote me on that though, I'm not absolutely certain. GC pivots seem to be about 2mm farther apart than Mafac. Pauls I've heard have a different mounting height. DIA-COMPE Center-Pull To Braze-On Assembly Kit for one Brake | Cycles Toussaint

I'm building up a bike now with the reissue GC 610 (not braze on), and my current rider is Mafac equipped. Generally I've found in the past that Mafacs have a bit more brute force, but the Weinmann/DC type modulates a bit better. We shall see how the reissues do, as they are more stoutly made than the old ones.

bulldog1935

Diacompe Ene (which are the Compass Mafac clones) - available through Japan vendors

compare cost with Touissant.

bulldog1935

I'm back - this is worth buying from Japan - $30/caliper

https://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gc450.html
take them apart and reassemble on your posts
you also need this part
https://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_bsp.html
and they make a fancy tool for holding adjustment on your pads while you tighten them
https://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_tool_ch.html

ps - I've bought a lot from Grand Bois and Alex's cycle - GB will send you a paypal invoice with shipping included (express mail, not bad from Japan).
GB will also send you their gorgeous catalog with every order.

noglider 

Those are gorgeous.

If you want to spend less, MAFAC brakes are pretty darned good.

djkashuba 

Interesting questions (I have no answers) I would like to know if the Compass CPs would work on my Centurion.


Dia Compe Model G brakes/ Centurion Pro Tour by djk762, on Flickr

bulldog1935

probably not with that reach, but the Pauls would, and I'd rather have them at that long reach.
Andy at Modern Bike is the one guy who discounts Paul Components
https://ruedatropical.com/2009/01/maf...l-brake-specs/ - he has all the specs tabulated

Ride-Fly

Outstanding! I dig the looks and the price!!! Do you know what the distance required for these brakes? Seems shorter and narrower than the Pauls.


Again, Sal, you are a plethora of info! Thanks! The Gran Comps you are referring to are the ones bulldog linked, correct?

It's a bummer that all CPs aren't universally mounted!

Where can you find Mafacs? Used on eBay?

Thanks for that bulldog! It's like gold I tell ya!

ironwood

I don't think Paul racers will fit on Dia-Comp or MAFAC posts, nor will Dia-Comp, Mafac and their clones work on posts for Paul Racers. I'm not sure of this; perhaps someone has actually mounted Dia-comps on Paul posts or vice versa.

bulldog1935

You could be totally right.

Ride-fly, if you haven't brazed the posts yet, the correct approach is get the brakes first.

They do look shorter than these
https://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/gc700/
here we go
https://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/gc610/
Dia Compe makes 450, 610 and 700 reach

so keep looking, maybe you can find the gran compe CPs in the UK, or if all else fails, you can try a Japan broker like noppin.com
give them the link to the product you want, they will shop in Japan, get you the best price, add 20% brokerage fee
(just remember they will add final post to US)

bulldog1935

Ride-fly, here they are - all 3 sizes at SJS
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes-centre-pull/?geoc=US

probably 610 in front for sure?

and remember, you still need these parts:
https://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/g...assembly-kits/

Salamandrine 

Yeah, those are the Gran Compe 450, the short reach model with post style pads. There's also the Gran Compe 610 which are medium reach (erroneously often called long reach these days), which are a slightly updated version of the old Weinmann Vainqueur or Gran/Dia Compe 610 brakes. Also dia compe 750 are available, the long reach model.

I think you guys lost a zero though, as 30,000 yen is ~$300. Unless Japanese use a comma like Europeans in numbers? I don't know. There's vendors on ebay that sell them too, and the old vintage ones come up on ebay.

VO sells the 610 with upgraded pads here. Dia-Compe #610 Centerpull Brake

I'm pretty sure you could mount both the common Mafacs and Weinmann/dia-compe types on the same posts with a bit of adjustment, assuming the same reach.

Salamandrine 

I would pick the Gran Compe 610 medium reach for a normal touring bike, in fact I did.

Salamandrine 

As long as this obscure C&V topic has come up: has anyone had a chance to compare braze on center pull brakes to center pull brakes with a Spence Wolfe style booster plate? It seems like the extra rigidity would get you most if not all of the stiffness of direct braze ons, though it's not as elegant and probably a few grams heavier.

The new GC 610 CNC brakes are beefier than the originals, and may not need it, other than for coolness.

(SF Bay area people may be familiar with these and other mods originating from the old Cupertino Bike Shop)

noglider 

Yes, ebay, craigslist, cheap donor bikes. They are everywhere. Don't pay much for them. If the extra trouble it takes to set them up isn't a burden for you, they are some of the best values in brakes. If you want to buy a pair, or even if you're just curious, set up a google alert for them so you can see how they are selling on craigslist, ebay, etc.

ironwood

The Jitensha Studio, Welcome to Jitensha Studio , sells the Grand Bois Chouette brakes which like the Compass brakes, are based on MAFACs. They carry both the standard reach, which is like the Racer, and the long reach version comparable to the Raid. They alsotake orders for the Ebisu frames. Did anyone mention them on your other thread?

bulldog1935

good call, Jitensha is a good outfit

Ride-Fly

You're the first! Thanks! I'll check them out.

If I can score some for dirt cheap, I'll get some just so I can tinker with them.

Wowzers, all these options are making my head spin a little!!! . But that's what I asked for!!! Thanks bubbas- I be learnin a lot!!!!

bulldog1935

perfect - take your time and make plans

iTod

Having spent way too much time researching this very topic, I have come to understand that the Paul Racer uses cantilever brake posts, mounted in a different position than cantilever posts would be for cantilever brakes, and therefore incompatible with MAFAC/DiaCompe/etc. centerpulls. I have a set of the RAIDs in use on a bike currently, though not brazed on (yet.) I really like them. Also currently use a pair of Weinmanns, also not brazed on. I don't hate them... Proper set up and Kool stop pads really seem to help. And, fwiw, I really kind of lust after the Pauls, and if you're going to have braze ons added, and your choice was between the Pauls or the RAIDS, I think I'd go with the Pauls, especially given that the price is not typically so disparate.(Of course, the occasional "good deal" pops up on the bay, but never when I'm looking!)
Also, the thing to bear in mind with any of them is what size tires you plan to use with them, as some allow for wider tires than others.
I am always open and quite happy to be proven wrong on any and all of the above points.
Good luck!

gugie 

I refer to that picture often.

gugie 

You need to first consider the relationship between the brake, tire, and fender (I'll assume that since you'll want to ride this bike during the long rainy season of Portlandia). For example, the 650b x 42mm tired, fendered "standard" for rando bikes gives you a choice between cantilevers or long reach centerpulls. Paul and Compass make them, but I prefer reusing the classic MAFAC RAID, which even Jan Heine admits is an optimal shape. The brass bushings and thrust washers are an upgrade, the rest of the "upgrade kit" are really cosmetic, IMO.

The reach of a MAFAC RAID is 66-80mm from the bolt hole. If you're brazing the posts on, the bolt hole doesn't matter, it's where the posts are brazed on relative to the dropout/hub centerline. Back to the "rando standard" I mentioned, you need long reach brakes. If you're using 700c x 35 tires + fenders, a "medium reach" centerpull might work just fine, and you can save some money on the brakes.

If you're a cost-conscious cyclist, I'd recommend staying away from the Compass or Paul brakes, since you can get the same performance for less money by purchasing a set of vintage RAID's and add the brass bushings and washers for less than $100. Add a little elbow grease and they can even be polished up. If you don't need the extra reach, there are less expensive options.

Note that just because a frame has centerpull posts you can't just mix and match any brake, even assuming the reach works. The center distance between the posts varies between different centerpulls. You can cheat a bit away from the published dimensions, for example, if you have a fairly narrow fork crown and want RAID centerpull posts. The brakes will work, but not optimally.

Building bicycles is an exercise in compromise and value judgements.

bloom87

my own recommandation :
any MAFAC brake. they're cheap, they do the job, and there are tons of spare parts around


pics might say it better
both front and rear can lock the wheel on my setup...

Chris W.

I mounted some MAFAC Racers'on my Centurion Pro-Tour, and the fit was great! I changed it back to the Dia-Comp calipers as they looked better, and didn't squeal I definitely think the brazed on post make the caliper stiffer. And fwiw I did see a Pro-Tour on Flickr that had Paul Racers' installed (not supposed to work/fit, but the guy said they did).
Cheers,
Chris

Ride-Fly

Yep, checking all the links in this thread, and researching other's opinions on this topic can certainly make your head spin. But as a result, I'm questioning whether I want or need to go with the braze-ons. Seems most are content with the center mount CPs, and it opens more options. I want to be able to run 32s with fenders, but likely run 28s or 30s.



All these gotchas and details are what's making me question the CP braze-on route. Would be a lot easier to just do the center mount CPs. I guess if I just say, "screw it, I'm doing the Paul Racers", there's not much else to say. I'd just order the frame with that specification in mind. But then again, that frame is then forever married to Pauls. Do I want to do that?



Do you convert the Mafacs to post mounts or do they come that way? I've only seen the center mounts on eBay, so I assume you have to convert them. Easy to do? As Gugie mentioned above, about $100 to convert to brass bushings and washer? (I'm assuming that is what's required to convert them to post mounted use.). Seems like I'm up to $130-$200 to go with Mafacs. In that case, I think I'd rather pay the extra duckets and get the Pauls, if I decide to go the post instead of center mount route.



Stiffer calipers equal stronger braking, I'm sure, but how much stronger, and what does it do for modulation? Is the effort and cost worth the performance delta?

I hope lots of you will chime in with your opinion on this question. Again, appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge and experiences. Thanks all!