Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

I think these threads are best interpreted in the context of the recreational cyclist. Lighter and deeper wheels won't materially affect your speed on your morning rec ride. Racing, against those of similar ability, with seconds (or fractions thereof) making a difference, is a whole different thing.

This is, after all, the 41 and not the 33.

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

The continuing blind belief in certain other areas continues to blow my mind.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval

But have you ever lost a podium spot by an inch?
I've lost many back in the day. It always makes me wonder...

Originally Posted by guadzilla

By a second or two during TTs, so yeah, I hear you.

That said, if we are talking *purely* rotational mass, i dont know (as in, really dont know one way or the other) if the slight savings in acceleration would offset the other savings during near-steady-state riding or whether in a sprint finish, would the length of the sprint matter?

In any case, from the point of view of the question you asked, it is academic. For your purposes, lowering the weight of the rims also means lowering the overall weight of the bike, as so yeah, in the real world, taking weight off the rim has some value, sure.

Originally Posted by guadzilla

Dont follow... you referring to me or Hambini or his fans?

Originally Posted by swifty

Not if the lighter weight rim is also a shallower/less aerodynamic rim. In that case, you've just made your bike slower in most scenarios (barring the steepest hill climbs)..

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

That was poorly phrased. I meant the blind faith in him his fans have, especially on certain other forums where he is referred to reverentially.

Originally Posted by guadzilla

To comment on whether 1-2 watts matter that rubiksoval brought up: cumulatively over the course of a race, of course. It may not be big, but marginal gains and all - f there are no tradeoffs, I'll take every extra watt I can. I am a big fan of trying to extract extra gains whereever i can: lord knows my lard ass could use it.

That said, there is a point at which the difference becomes a bit too small to be determined with accuracy or even actionable. Let's say i have 2 wheels, where one wheel is overall just a little bit lighter but the rims are slightly heavier compared to the other. Aero wise, they are equal. Would one be slightly faster during a race? Theoretically, yes. I suspect that the difference would be within the error margins of the analysis, and also not worth the effort.

Originally Posted by guadzilla

I think just using a lot of cusswords and making bold statements in a very confident tone of voice appeals to a certain mindset...

Originally Posted by rubiksoval

Indeed. And this is where I start thinking about things like fully zipped jerseys, tight helmet straps, turtling, low head position while sprinting, etc.; all these little differences can potentially make a difference. It can be as much a mind game as a physical one.

Originally Posted by upthywazzoo

Hearkening back to what you said before about podium finishes: "I always wonder"--having the perfect gear helps to rule out the gear as a cause for the result. Would you be harder on yourself for not making the podium if your gear was perfect? Or would you be more upset, knowing that you could have made a different choice pre-race?

Originally Posted by asgelle

What if I can borrow something I can't afford myself? That (among other reasons) is why I used available.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval

My gear is never perfect and I've never really had a choice of gear. I typically have one thing I train on and one thing I race on (wheels), or I use the same thing for both. However, four or so years ago I was running shallow aluminum wheels full time and in six or seven different races over the course of the season I lost the race itself or a podium spot by an inch or two. It was crazy how often it happened and was the single reason I built up a set of 58mm wheels over the winter.

I've since only lost a sprint by a half a wheel or less one time, and that one time I had to change the front wheel mid-race to a shallow al rim (I've lost lots of sprints by bike lengths or more, of course). So completely anecdotal and almost ridiculous on the surface, but I like the story.

Anyway, a loss is a loss. You can question every single thing about the loss from timing, position, fitness, equipment, wind, other riders, etc, but that eats a way at you. I've found it best to focus on patterns or repeated issues and seek to remedy that if possible. If you're constantly losing by a bike length or two, adjust starting position and sprint timing and maybe fitness if that's part of the problem. If you're constantly losing by inches, adjust your sprinting position and equipment if possible, etc.

Originally Posted by burnthesheep

I read his stuff, and I read most of the long back and forth topic on another forum about it. I had an opinion at the time, but I'll keep it to myself to keep this on-topic. I've even changed that opinion a bit after letting some time pass and reading some more.

I do understand there could be sales bias from data released by people selling wheels, but there are both CRR and aero data for wheels out there that is not from a vendor and also not from Hambini. Also, there's about 5 forum posters on other forums that I trust when they post new data (or private message people results in a private group). There's also better groups than BF and Slowtwitch for this data and for talking to people a lot smarter than I am about it.

Most of the data I value most has a time trial bias to it. That's my hobby. I don't race road much. I'll do the hammer rides, but only a few road things a year. Given that, spin-up power doesn't really matter that much to me personally. Time trial or triathlon wheel testing instead typically focuses a lot on the wheel to tire interface and the vibration of the tire as it goes over road surfaces. There's a term for it, I forget what it is. But, their charts are usually the "total power" to go some speed as a combo of CRR and drag of the wheel/tire combo. Different companies claim to design wheels around one or two tire sizes or brands. Some of the fast stuff was designed around a GP4000s2 or the Conti attack/force combo years back in triathlon stuff. Now, a lot is designed around the GP5000 or the Vittoria CS. Claimed to be, I don't know for sure. When I asked to a person at the company about a few tires I was given a pretty definitive "use that one, and in that size, we designed it for that". They don't sell the tires, so they don't have a bias in which they tell me is best.

I live driving distance to the A2 tunnel. So we have some folks around we can talk to that have been. I may save my pennies and just for fun make a birthday weekend of doubling up the A2 tunnel and doing a beginner track course at Rock Hill next year. I'd love that! But, that's a dream given the cost.

What info do I use or what do I do to buy things?
I've taken the personal approach of choosing what to buy and what to use starting with my budget. I can look at super shiny fancy things all day, but if it's out of budget it is no good to me. With budget blinders on I can eliminate a significant portion of options. Next, I make sure I'm in the generic ballpark of what I want. General use road/road race, time trial, cyclocross. An obvious thing to do. Then, I buy a lot of used equipment then re-sale it after trying it. Lots of people do that and do it at a lot more rapid rate of buy/test/sell than I do. But, I've gone through some stuff at the house the past year or two. Enough stuff to attract the wife's attention to the number of boxes coming and going. While I have it, I'll pair it with the tires and/or tubes or glue or whatever I'm going to use. Then do the virtual elevation testing on it against something I own and have kept I can use as a "control". Usually those 38mm wheels I mentioned. I wish I could swap stuff out more, but it eats time to do so.

I bought a $30 anemometer to make the data cleaner for the aero stuff. I also now have a "legit" power meter on the TT bike instead of a left-only meter. A left-only isn't great for doing that stuff. I've played with the anemometer once so far, it is fussier than expected, but has promise. Now that I have my newer wheel for TT at home........time to test again.