You Don't Need Those Light Weight Wheels
#151
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
I think these threads are best interpreted in the context of the recreational cyclist. Lighter and deeper wheels won't materially affect your speed on your morning rec ride. Racing, against those of similar ability, with seconds (or fractions thereof) making a difference, is a whole different thing.
This is, after all, the 41 and not the 33.
This is, after all, the 41 and not the 33.
#153
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Offthebackistan
Posts: 4,338
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 627 Times
in
295 Posts
That said, if we are talking *purely* rotational mass, i dont know (as in, really dont know one way or the other) if the slight savings in acceleration would offset the other savings during near-steady-state riding or whether in a sprint finish, would the length of the sprint matter?
In any case, from the point of view of the question you asked, it is academic. For your purposes, lowering the weight of the rims also means lowering the overall weight of the bike, as so yeah, in the real world, taking weight off the rim has some value, sure.
#154
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Offthebackistan
Posts: 4,338
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 627 Times
in
295 Posts
To comment on whether 1-2 watts matter that rubiksoval brought up: cumulatively over the course of a race, of course. It may not be big, but marginal gains and all - f there are no tradeoffs, I'll take every extra watt I can. I am a big fan of trying to extract extra gains whereever i can: lord knows my lard ass could use it.
That said, there is a point at which the difference becomes a bit too small to be determined with accuracy or even actionable. Let's say i have 2 wheels, where one wheel is overall just a little bit lighter but the rims are slightly heavier compared to the other. Aero wise, they are equal. Would one be slightly faster during a race? Theoretically, yes. I suspect that the difference would be within the error margins of the analysis, and also not worth the effort.
Since everyone seems super touchy these days, let me add the qualifier that this is just my opinion, you do you, etc. etc.
That said, there is a point at which the difference becomes a bit too small to be determined with accuracy or even actionable. Let's say i have 2 wheels, where one wheel is overall just a little bit lighter but the rims are slightly heavier compared to the other. Aero wise, they are equal. Would one be slightly faster during a race? Theoretically, yes. I suspect that the difference would be within the error margins of the analysis, and also not worth the effort.
Since everyone seems super touchy these days, let me add the qualifier that this is just my opinion, you do you, etc. etc.
#155
commuter
By a second or two during TTs, so yeah, I hear you.
That said, if we are talking *purely* rotational mass, i dont know (as in, really dont know one way or the other) if the slight savings in acceleration would offset the other savings during near-steady-state riding or whether in a sprint finish, would the length of the sprint matter?
In any case, from the point of view of the question you asked, it is academic. For your purposes, lowering the weight of the rims also means lowering the overall weight of the bike, as so yeah, in the real world, taking weight off the rim has some value, sure.
That said, if we are talking *purely* rotational mass, i dont know (as in, really dont know one way or the other) if the slight savings in acceleration would offset the other savings during near-steady-state riding or whether in a sprint finish, would the length of the sprint matter?
In any case, from the point of view of the question you asked, it is academic. For your purposes, lowering the weight of the rims also means lowering the overall weight of the bike, as so yeah, in the real world, taking weight off the rim has some value, sure.
#156
serious cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147
Bikes: S1, R2, P2
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times
in
2,026 Posts
Likes For Bah Humbug:
#157
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Offthebackistan
Posts: 4,338
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 627 Times
in
295 Posts
Yes, that is fairly obvious. The context was just weight, with all other factors remaining the same.
Likes For guadzilla:
#158
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Offthebackistan
Posts: 4,338
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 627 Times
in
295 Posts
And to be fair to Hambini, when it come to BBs and machining tolerances, he knows his business. And his early videos were very fact-based and objective. But people extrapolate from that and assume he knows everything about ALL engineering when in fact he is just acting up for the camera to get viewers and making factually inaccurate generalizations.
#159
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
To comment on whether 1-2 watts matter that rubiksoval brought up: cumulatively over the course of a race, of course. It may not be big, but marginal gains and all - f there are no tradeoffs, I'll take every extra watt I can. I am a big fan of trying to extract extra gains whereever i can: lord knows my lard ass could use it.
That said, there is a point at which the difference becomes a bit too small to be determined with accuracy or even actionable. Let's say i have 2 wheels, where one wheel is overall just a little bit lighter but the rims are slightly heavier compared to the other. Aero wise, they are equal. Would one be slightly faster during a race? Theoretically, yes. I suspect that the difference would be within the error margins of the analysis, and also not worth the effort.
That said, there is a point at which the difference becomes a bit too small to be determined with accuracy or even actionable. Let's say i have 2 wheels, where one wheel is overall just a little bit lighter but the rims are slightly heavier compared to the other. Aero wise, they are equal. Would one be slightly faster during a race? Theoretically, yes. I suspect that the difference would be within the error margins of the analysis, and also not worth the effort.
Likes For rubiksoval:
#160
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,509
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20801 Post(s)
Liked 9,448 Times
in
4,666 Posts
Likes For WhyFi:
#161
Senior Member
Hearkening back to what you said before about podium finishes: "I always wonder"--having the perfect gear helps to rule out the gear as a cause for the result. Would you be harder on yourself for not making the podium if your gear was perfect? Or would you be more upset, knowing that you could have made a different choice pre-race?
Last edited by upthywazzoo; 07-16-20 at 06:14 AM.
#162
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Ehh.. who would want to steal a podium with their wallet anyway?
#163
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
Hearkening back to what you said before about podium finishes: "I always wonder"--having the perfect gear helps to rule out the gear as a cause for the result. Would you be harder on yourself for not making the podium if your gear was perfect? Or would you be more upset, knowing that you could have made a different choice pre-race?
I've since only lost a sprint by a half a wheel or less one time, and that one time I had to change the front wheel mid-race to a shallow al rim (I've lost lots of sprints by bike lengths or more, of course). So completely anecdotal and almost ridiculous on the surface, but I like the story.
Anyway, a loss is a loss. You can question every single thing about the loss from timing, position, fitness, equipment, wind, other riders, etc, but that eats a way at you. I've found it best to focus on patterns or repeated issues and seek to remedy that if possible. If you're constantly losing by a bike length or two, adjust starting position and sprint timing and maybe fitness if that's part of the problem. If you're constantly losing by inches, adjust your sprinting position and equipment if possible, etc.
Last edited by rubiksoval; 07-16-20 at 06:29 AM.
Likes For rubiksoval:
#164
So it is
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 21,327
Bikes: Luzerne, 684, Boreas, Wheelhouse, Alize©®, Bayamo, Cayo
Mentioned: 246 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11393 Post(s)
Liked 4,729 Times
in
2,756 Posts
#165
Senior Member
My gear is never perfect and I've never really had a choice of gear. I typically have one thing I train on and one thing I race on (wheels), or I use the same thing for both. However, four or so years ago I was running shallow aluminum wheels full time and in six or seven different races over the course of the season I lost the race itself or a podium spot by an inch or two. It was crazy how often it happened and was the single reason I built up a set of 58mm wheels over the winter.
I've since only lost a sprint by a half a wheel or less one time, and that one time I had to change the front wheel mid-race to a shallow al rim (I've lost lots of sprints by bike lengths or more, of course). So completely anecdotal and almost ridiculous on the surface, but I like the story.
Anyway, a loss is a loss. You can question every single thing about the loss from timing, position, fitness, equipment, wind, other riders, etc, but that eats a way at you. I've found it best to focus on patterns or repeated issues and seek to remedy that if possible. If you're constantly losing by a bike length or two, adjust starting position and sprint timing and maybe fitness if that's part of the problem. If you're constantly losing by inches, adjust your sprinting position and equipment if possible, etc.
I've since only lost a sprint by a half a wheel or less one time, and that one time I had to change the front wheel mid-race to a shallow al rim (I've lost lots of sprints by bike lengths or more, of course). So completely anecdotal and almost ridiculous on the surface, but I like the story.
Anyway, a loss is a loss. You can question every single thing about the loss from timing, position, fitness, equipment, wind, other riders, etc, but that eats a way at you. I've found it best to focus on patterns or repeated issues and seek to remedy that if possible. If you're constantly losing by a bike length or two, adjust starting position and sprint timing and maybe fitness if that's part of the problem. If you're constantly losing by inches, adjust your sprinting position and equipment if possible, etc.
Personally, I feel like it would be easier to compartmentalize an undesired race result if there was something left to optimize. Wheels, jersey, helmet, etc. But at the highest level of the sport, where everything is given to me--pretty much--I feel like I would take that loss a lot harder.
#166
Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 37
Bikes: Basso Loto, Andre Bertain, Schwinn Madison, Litespeed Unicoi, Easton full sustension, Macau non-suspended MTN, Merlin Agilis, A-D Superlicht, Daccordi Piuma, Scott CR1 (former owner Thomas Frischnecht), Van Diesel CX, Alan Top Cross, Scattante CX, Ri
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
11 Posts
I read his stuff, and I read most of the long back and forth topic on another forum about it. I had an opinion at the time, but I'll keep it to myself to keep this on-topic. I've even changed that opinion a bit after letting some time pass and reading some more.
I do understand there could be sales bias from data released by people selling wheels, but there are both CRR and aero data for wheels out there that is not from a vendor and also not from Hambini. Also, there's about 5 forum posters on other forums that I trust when they post new data (or private message people results in a private group). There's also better groups than BF and Slowtwitch for this data and for talking to people a lot smarter than I am about it.
Most of the data I value most has a time trial bias to it. That's my hobby. I don't race road much. I'll do the hammer rides, but only a few road things a year. Given that, spin-up power doesn't really matter that much to me personally. Time trial or triathlon wheel testing instead typically focuses a lot on the wheel to tire interface and the vibration of the tire as it goes over road surfaces. There's a term for it, I forget what it is. But, their charts are usually the "total power" to go some speed as a combo of CRR and drag of the wheel/tire combo. Different companies claim to design wheels around one or two tire sizes or brands. Some of the fast stuff was designed around a GP4000s2 or the Conti attack/force combo years back in triathlon stuff. Now, a lot is designed around the GP5000 or the Vittoria CS. Claimed to be, I don't know for sure. When I asked to a person at the company about a few tires I was given a pretty definitive "use that one, and in that size, we designed it for that". They don't sell the tires, so they don't have a bias in which they tell me is best.
I live driving distance to the A2 tunnel. So we have some folks around we can talk to that have been. I may save my pennies and just for fun make a birthday weekend of doubling up the A2 tunnel and doing a beginner track course at Rock Hill next year. I'd love that! But, that's a dream given the cost.
What info do I use or what do I do to buy things?
I've taken the personal approach of choosing what to buy and what to use starting with my budget. I can look at super shiny fancy things all day, but if it's out of budget it is no good to me. With budget blinders on I can eliminate a significant portion of options. Next, I make sure I'm in the generic ballpark of what I want. General use road/road race, time trial, cyclocross. An obvious thing to do. Then, I buy a lot of used equipment then re-sale it after trying it. Lots of people do that and do it at a lot more rapid rate of buy/test/sell than I do. But, I've gone through some stuff at the house the past year or two. Enough stuff to attract the wife's attention to the number of boxes coming and going. While I have it, I'll pair it with the tires and/or tubes or glue or whatever I'm going to use. Then do the virtual elevation testing on it against something I own and have kept I can use as a "control". Usually those 38mm wheels I mentioned. I wish I could swap stuff out more, but it eats time to do so.
I bought a $30 anemometer to make the data cleaner for the aero stuff. I also now have a "legit" power meter on the TT bike instead of a left-only meter. A left-only isn't great for doing that stuff. I've played with the anemometer once so far, it is fussier than expected, but has promise. Now that I have my newer wheel for TT at home........time to test again.
I do understand there could be sales bias from data released by people selling wheels, but there are both CRR and aero data for wheels out there that is not from a vendor and also not from Hambini. Also, there's about 5 forum posters on other forums that I trust when they post new data (or private message people results in a private group). There's also better groups than BF and Slowtwitch for this data and for talking to people a lot smarter than I am about it.
Most of the data I value most has a time trial bias to it. That's my hobby. I don't race road much. I'll do the hammer rides, but only a few road things a year. Given that, spin-up power doesn't really matter that much to me personally. Time trial or triathlon wheel testing instead typically focuses a lot on the wheel to tire interface and the vibration of the tire as it goes over road surfaces. There's a term for it, I forget what it is. But, their charts are usually the "total power" to go some speed as a combo of CRR and drag of the wheel/tire combo. Different companies claim to design wheels around one or two tire sizes or brands. Some of the fast stuff was designed around a GP4000s2 or the Conti attack/force combo years back in triathlon stuff. Now, a lot is designed around the GP5000 or the Vittoria CS. Claimed to be, I don't know for sure. When I asked to a person at the company about a few tires I was given a pretty definitive "use that one, and in that size, we designed it for that". They don't sell the tires, so they don't have a bias in which they tell me is best.
I live driving distance to the A2 tunnel. So we have some folks around we can talk to that have been. I may save my pennies and just for fun make a birthday weekend of doubling up the A2 tunnel and doing a beginner track course at Rock Hill next year. I'd love that! But, that's a dream given the cost.
What info do I use or what do I do to buy things?
I've taken the personal approach of choosing what to buy and what to use starting with my budget. I can look at super shiny fancy things all day, but if it's out of budget it is no good to me. With budget blinders on I can eliminate a significant portion of options. Next, I make sure I'm in the generic ballpark of what I want. General use road/road race, time trial, cyclocross. An obvious thing to do. Then, I buy a lot of used equipment then re-sale it after trying it. Lots of people do that and do it at a lot more rapid rate of buy/test/sell than I do. But, I've gone through some stuff at the house the past year or two. Enough stuff to attract the wife's attention to the number of boxes coming and going. While I have it, I'll pair it with the tires and/or tubes or glue or whatever I'm going to use. Then do the virtual elevation testing on it against something I own and have kept I can use as a "control". Usually those 38mm wheels I mentioned. I wish I could swap stuff out more, but it eats time to do so.
I bought a $30 anemometer to make the data cleaner for the aero stuff. I also now have a "legit" power meter on the TT bike instead of a left-only meter. A left-only isn't great for doing that stuff. I've played with the anemometer once so far, it is fussier than expected, but has promise. Now that I have my newer wheel for TT at home........time to test again.
I know Zipp is more commonly known, but I say ride Rolfs. Strong (I am 215), light, and aero
#167
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
After losing both of my 1980s lightweight shallow rear rims in the same week last week, I'm switching to sturdier rims. Those spiffy 1980s champagne-toned anodized super hard rims looked really nice but had a reputation for being a bit fragile if not tended carefully, which I didn't do. I just tightened spokes whenever a wobble developed, never bothered to check spoke tension other than twanging them with my fingers. Suddenly last week both the Araya and Wolber rear rims had the spokes begin to pull through, cracking the rims in a few places. No sudden failure, just a ticking sound with each rotation to warn me. Got a lot of miles out of those things so I can't complain.
I don't race (at 62 stuff breaks when I fall now), so acceleration isn't important to me. I might try the state time trial some day after the Super Cooties Apocalypse is over, assuming I survive. So I might keep a lightweight wheelset around for that, and maybe chasing KOMs that I'll never get. Or maybe I'll break down and get some proper carbon aero rims for that.
But for my middling speed, I found a heavier sorta-aero aluminum wheelset with 16 bladed spokes (older Bontrager Race Lite Aero with DT Swiss hubs) held up remarkably well and might have been slightly faster over distance. A few extra grams is no big deal.
I don't race (at 62 stuff breaks when I fall now), so acceleration isn't important to me. I might try the state time trial some day after the Super Cooties Apocalypse is over, assuming I survive. So I might keep a lightweight wheelset around for that, and maybe chasing KOMs that I'll never get. Or maybe I'll break down and get some proper carbon aero rims for that.
But for my middling speed, I found a heavier sorta-aero aluminum wheelset with 16 bladed spokes (older Bontrager Race Lite Aero with DT Swiss hubs) held up remarkably well and might have been slightly faster over distance. A few extra grams is no big deal.