Disc brakes in Tour de France
09-08-20, 10:47 AM
#51
n00b
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,397
Bikes: Surly Karate Monkey, Twin Six Standard Rando
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Liked 466 Times
in
273 Posts
fun fact that I learned today: bicycles with different kinds of brakes win races, not the riders on those bikes.
also new to me: bicycles can be categorized soley by the type of brakes used on them.
also new to me: bicycles can be categorized soley by the type of brakes used on them.
Likes For mack_turtle:
09-08-20, 10:49 AM
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
Do I think that is the sole reason for them doing it? Probably not, but can't be sure. Do I think it's one of the reasons? Yes.
Last edited by robertorolfo; 09-08-20 at 12:24 PM.
09-08-20, 11:10 AM
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,949
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3950 Post(s)
Liked 7,296 Times
in
2,946 Posts
1) Simplifies logistics of wheel changes.
2) Slightly faster wheels changes.
...
96) Can't decide if it's "disc" or "disk", so we decided to use rim brakes.
97) "Rim" has fewer letters than "disc", so it's probably faster.
98) Team owner's brother-in-law uses disc brakes on his mountain bike, and he can't stand his brother in law, so ...
99) Prefer dead weight in seat tube instead of brake rotors.
100) Why not?
Likes For tomato coupe:
09-08-20, 03:08 PM
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times
in
204 Posts
You know that ABS has become big in the motorcycling world the past few years, right? And yes, I know about contact patch and suspension differences, but the point is that the technology is applicable and of some value for two-wheeled transport.
Do they though? The results so far don't bear that out (more on this below). And even if they did work "better," whatever you mean by that exactly, does the benefit really make a difference in reality? (Again, see below). Lastly, does this so-called "better" compensate for the downsides in both racing and everyday life?
I agree that you can't use the results so far to prove that rim brakes are better, but you can use them to disprove this notion that rim brakes are inferior and might actually be a handicap.
Watching stages 8 and 9, with their pretty intense descents, it was clear that the rim brake guys were at no disadvantage. Indeed, they were there riding in close quarters with the disc guys, and it didn't seem to make any difference to them at all. So what the results do seem to show is that for the best riders in the world, there is little to no difference in performance, so for the average person there is nothing there (or you could say it's a matter of skill).
But, for the average person that doesn't have a mechanic stripping their bike down at the end of every day, there are some real downsides to discs that shouldn't be ignored. Dealing with hydraulics is annoying (at least relative to simple cables), and it only gets worse with age. What I find funny is all the disc worshippers that have as a frame of reference new, or fairly new, bikes and brake systems. Just wait a few years until things start to get some wear and tear, until seals start to dry out or get worn. That's when the real fun begins.
See above. What these results (and the actual racing) do tell us is that rim brakes are NOT some type of handicap. Not even close.
Do you watch MotoGP? Heck, do you watch F1? If you don't think placing mass where you want it is important to racers, you don't know racers...
Do they though? The results so far don't bear that out (more on this below). And even if they did work "better," whatever you mean by that exactly, does the benefit really make a difference in reality? (Again, see below). Lastly, does this so-called "better" compensate for the downsides in both racing and everyday life?
I agree that you can't use the results so far to prove that rim brakes are better, but you can use them to disprove this notion that rim brakes are inferior and might actually be a handicap.
Watching stages 8 and 9, with their pretty intense descents, it was clear that the rim brake guys were at no disadvantage. Indeed, they were there riding in close quarters with the disc guys, and it didn't seem to make any difference to them at all. So what the results do seem to show is that for the best riders in the world, there is little to no difference in performance, so for the average person there is nothing there (or you could say it's a matter of skill).
But, for the average person that doesn't have a mechanic stripping their bike down at the end of every day, there are some real downsides to discs that shouldn't be ignored. Dealing with hydraulics is annoying (at least relative to simple cables), and it only gets worse with age. What I find funny is all the disc worshippers that have as a frame of reference new, or fairly new, bikes and brake systems. Just wait a few years until things start to get some wear and tear, until seals start to dry out or get worn. That's when the real fun begins.
See above. What these results (and the actual racing) do tell us is that rim brakes are NOT some type of handicap. Not even close.
Do you watch MotoGP? Heck, do you watch F1? If you don't think placing mass where you want it is important to racers, you don't know racers...
09-09-20, 11:29 AM
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
I found a leaked internal document from Jumbo Visma, listing the reasons why they use rim brakes (in order of importance):
1) Simplifies logistics of wheel changes.
2) Slightly faster wheels changes.
...
96) Can't decide if it's "disc" or "disk", so we decided to use rim brakes.
97) "Rim" has fewer letters than "disc", so it's probably faster.
98) Team owner's brother-in-law uses disc brakes on his mountain bike, and he can't stand his brother in law, so ...
99) Prefer dead weight in seat tube instead of brake rotors.
100) Why not?
1) Simplifies logistics of wheel changes.
2) Slightly faster wheels changes.
...
96) Can't decide if it's "disc" or "disk", so we decided to use rim brakes.
97) "Rim" has fewer letters than "disc", so it's probably faster.
98) Team owner's brother-in-law uses disc brakes on his mountain bike, and he can't stand his brother in law, so ...
99) Prefer dead weight in seat tube instead of brake rotors.
100) Why not?
Desperation? Are you sure you are using the right word? Where do you see desperation there?
09-09-20, 11:43 AM
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times
in
446 Posts
My daughter was a state-level high school swimmer, and when her team swam relays, the swimmer on the block was winding up and committing to the dive before the swimmer in the water had touched the pad. It was risky, because if they mistimed, the entire relay team ended up being disqualified. If they waited until the swimmer had actually touched, they'd guarantee no DQ, but they'd sacrifice at least a second at every changeover, which would pretty much also guarantee that they'd never win. So they took the chance, and on the rare occasions when they screwed up and were DQ'd, the team supported the defaulting swimmer without recrimination, because they all know that they would do exactly the same thing, and take the same risk, in her place. High-level competition is a high wire act - if you don't take risks, you're not competitive.
Likes For Litespud:
09-09-20, 01:27 PM
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
There's no question that ABS has been a significant safety advance for cars and now for motorcycles. However, the priority for four- and two-wheeled transport is safety, but racers, be they drivers, riders or cyclists, balance safety differently than the average "civilian" - no-one wants to crash, but racers do things and take risks that civilians would never contemplate. Almost no racing car or bike has ABS (they usually have on-the-fly adjustable front/rear braking bias) or has defeatable ABS, because the price of ABS is braking distance, and no-one wants to go flying into a corner, knowing that they can haul on the brakes at a maniacally late point to make the turn, only to have a more conservative electronic nanny (and I'm not using that term disparagingly) preempt their braking decisions. Sometimes these decisions don't pay off, but that's the nature of racing - if you're not pushing the envelope, safety or otherwise, you're not going to win. For every cyclist went down on Stage 1, there were more who didn't. They were all pushing the same envelope - some were just better, or luckier. Competition at this level involves risk - guaranteed safety = guaranteed lose...
