omijay 

Ok, I am admitting defeat after several days of searching and not being able to figure out who made this frame. I know there are many on this forum who are much more knowledgeable than me, so I would like to tap into your collective wisdom.

I have looked all over and I was not able to find anything on the web that looks similar to this frame. A brief history. The bike was saved from a garbage truck in Montreal with a complete set of 1973 Campagnolo Nuovo Record components (matching crank and rear derailleur years) except for a Zeus seat post, but it contained absolutely zero manufacturer stickers.

There is one number on the bottom of the bottom bracket, but I am not sure if this is a serial number or a part number (See photo). The only sticker on the bike is the name of the original owner (I believe) before it was placed in the garbage. I have not included the name out of respect because from what I figure out, he passed away about a year ago. The bike itself looked like it had not been used in 30 plus years based on the dust, handlebar tape and cobwebs.

The one possibility is it is a home-made frame by the owner whose name is on the frame. Some of the welding appears to be rather crude.

From what I have figured out, the seat post is a Zeus Gran sport and the diameter is 26.2 mm (There is no size marking, but it seems like all other similar Zeus seat posts have a size marking except this size). This is also what I measured

The bottom bracket is Italian thread (36 X 24F). The rest of the story is in the attached photos.
















I would be grateful for any suggestions people might have. Thanks

Pcampeau

The pics provided are helpful but it’s probably best to add a photo of the complete frame for the sleuths. Also, are you able to tell what the serial number is? It’s not very legible in the photo provided.

omijay 

I was going to add the number, but it is problematic in person. It looks like there is a number stamped on top of another number, plus there are some star like symbols as well.
What I can see looks like 112964 then there is a bit of a mess then a 4 and a star (these are the larger numbers)
However, under there are some smaller numbers, but I cannot figure then out.
Here is the full view:

juvela

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fork -

crown is Agrati Nr. 000.8048, this is part of Agrati lug ensemble "AM" ART. 000.8040/U

end is Agrati item Nr. 000.8010

beige/gold paint colour on steerer may be original

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frame -

lug pattern is Agrati "AM" ART. 000.8040/U

lower head lug is Agrati item N. 000.8043

upper head lug is Agrati item N. 000.8044

seat lug is Agrati item N. 022.8049

bottom bracket shell is Agrati item N. 000.8507

dropouts are Agrati item N. 000.8002

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all of the frame details are items available to all - no signature pieces

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marking on shell -

appears it may have been purposefully munged - perhaps by someone knowing or suspecting theft

also possible it may not be a serial, could be a marking put in by a licensing agency

is the star you can see a five point or is it a six point?

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omijay 

The star is five points

juvela

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identification -

it is definitely a 1970's era Italian product

all you need do is to put it over your shoulder and step into Baggio Sports and/or Bloor

if an older staffer be present you won't even need to ask

they will recognize it straightaway with a phrase such as "That's a nice old ____ you have there."

keep in mind that there is a good likelihood it represents a contract produced house brand cycle so the nominal brand name may differ from that of the actual manufacturer


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omijay 

Baggio Cycle closed in the early 1980s. I did not move to Montreal until 2003, but my wife grew up in Montreal and bought her bike at Baggio when she was young. Their house brand was called Torpado. You still see a fair number of these floating on the streets of Montreal with a various mixture of quality components. The shop is now called Dumoulin Cycles and I think that was probably the end of the Italian importation era for the shop. I looked at many different Torpados and none seem to really match with this bike in terms of construction.
Bloor cycle was out of Toronto. They also are now closed. Their house brand appears to have been called Santini. I have not seen many of them in Montreal.

juvela

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thank you for the information on Baggio & Bloor

the most distinctive piece on the frame is the seat stay plugs

do not know the maker for this model of plug, alas

here is an image to show what seat stay plugs look like loose, posted solely for background





you may have an ID when you find a bicycle/frame with your lugs AND your seat stay plug, it is not particularly common


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omijay 

You are spot on with this comment. I have been looking at various frames for countless hours over the last several days and this is one of the two things I could not match up with other frames that had the same other lugs. The other thing is the eyelets for the rear brake cable housing. Many of the Italian bikes of this period did not have them. A local builder from this period named Leonard used similar looking pieces for the rear seat stays, but his frames were much more refined than this one. The welding on the cable guides for the front and rear derailleurs looks pretty sad to say the least as it does the crown of the fork (easy for me to say as I have never done this!!). This is why I started to wonder if someone maybe made it themselves.

juvela

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one does not encounter seat stay plugs this nice on a base model frame/cycle

if this were a base model one would expect it to exhibit a "bullet" type seat stay treatment, for example

this makes me suspect it to be a one up from the base sort of model

it may be constructed with some manner of quality plain gauge tubeset such as ZETA from A.L. Colombo, or Z50, or some manner of Falck

an easy check is seat post diameter opening; if frame were constructed with one of these tube sets would expect this dimension to be either 26.2mm or 26.4mm

edit: oops, see you have given it as 26.2mm

quite possible that all braze-ons other than chain stay stop are post-manufacture additions, the brake cable guides you mention appear they may be a GIPIEMME product

date estimate: 1975

seat stay plugs are a helpful item here

would think they would have to be investment cast (lost wax)

the first commercially available investment cast frame bits came out in 1973 and were from the Italian firm of ROTO (Rampinelli)

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omijay 

Thanks for all your insights and comments.

Campagnerdo 

Torpado did build with that bottom bracket shell style, with the welded seam, an example is Italvega.

juvela

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star symbol -

two possibilities

a) sometimes included in marking put into frame by licensing agency is a symbol which indicates a specific city

b) two Italian manufacturers who employed the five pointed star were Olmo & VINER (VIviano NERozzi)

you could have a go at looking at their products from around this time

do not wish to assert that either is the manufacturer, mention them as possible leads to explore


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oneclick 

Back end - brake bridge, dropouts, and seat stay ends look very much like all the lower-end Torpados and a similar-quality Garlatti I have seen (seat cluster does not).
In particular the brake bridge re-inforcement - the Torpados have a small tube projecting towards the seat tube side, with a disk brazed on the brake side.

This is the Garlatti bridge; let's have a snap of yours:

juvela

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​​​​​​

in this image it can be seen that the cycle's seat stay bridge exhibits the small tube protruding forward toward the seat tube

unlike the Garlatti example posted it is unflanged


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oneclick 

You're right - didn't spot that, had to blow it up:

juvela

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omijay -

you mention in your text that subject frame found as complete machine kitted with Campag NR ensemble

if frame produced for export to the anglophone world would think it likely to have been designed for 27" wheel

have you checked the brake centres with 27" wheels in place

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disturbing thought -

we seem in agreement that at least some of the present braze-ons are likely to be post-manufacture additions

occurs to me that person who performed these changes may have wanted a different than stock seat stay treatment as well; if so, they could have lopped off the top five cms or so of the seat stays and replaced the tops with these plugs

mention the possibility as it would render impossible the chance of finding a match for the frame


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omijay 

So I looked at several Olmo frames as you suggested and the seat stays seem to be a reasonable match. However, if you look at a 1975 Olmo they do not have the eyelets for the rear brake cable, but the 1976 model does. The problem with the 1976 model is it now has OLMO brazed on the seat stays. Also, both years have something for the rear derailleur bolt which this does not. Is it possible that it was a lower end Olmo frame that someone put a second shop name on?
As for the idea of the frame being modified, I have been leaning more and more along that line of thought. I think the guides for the derailleur cables were an add on. Although maybe done a little better, the eyelets also seem to be an add on and this would take it back to being similar to a 1975 Olmo frame. The bike was also clearly repainted, so this could all have happened during the repaint. The only other odd piece is it had a Dura Ace stem, with the receded bolt that required a long 6 mm hex wrench to remove. This came after 1980 and all the other pieces were early seventies Campagnolo.
As for it being for the Anglophone world, this might have come in through the Francophone-Italian world in Montreal!!!! The name of the owner offers no clear answer because it was one of the classic half French half English names you run into in Montreal. However, from what I know the owner was a Francophone.
I will check on the wheel/brake question

gearbasher

I don't want to be the harbinger of gloom, but check the steerer tube. It just doesn't look right to me. And check the crown race seat at the top of the fork crown. Is that a crack?
I hope I'm wrong. But, better safe than sorry.

JohnDThompson 

How much projects from beyond the bridge depends on how long the tube is and whether the builder shortened it. What does the other side look like?

omijay 

I am planning to give this to a friend, so I checked. There does not appear to be a crack. I will take a careful look again with some better lighting. Thanks for noticing.

omijay 

I was about to post the pictures, but stopped after the conclusion was it was not a Garlatti. Here they are

juvela

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thank you for the additional imagery

absence of the seating pad washer for the brake caliper is unusual on an italian cycle of this time



seating pad washer clearly visible in the image of the Garlatti bridge

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repechage

Torpado like but not convinced
possibility of add ons at repaint are decent.
the fork crown did experience some Gorilla efforts.
The side is interesting, more ornament that I expected from the rest of the details.

MauriceMoss

It's definitely a Torpado.
They started to use that style of stay caps around mid-70s, and it seems to coincide with the use of the mysterious (at least to me) "Templar" tubing, as well as the "Modello serie elegant - A Torresini" decals (not sure what those were about, either). That style can be seen on most of Torpado's range (with slight variations), from almost entry level to the top (even on the Superlight).
That fork crown was used quite a bit, starting even before the mid-70s.

While I think that the mystery frame had the top tube cable guides, shifter and water bottle bosses added later, there were Torpados that looked like this and had both, originally:





Both of these below were sold by Baggio: