johnbobey

I'm new here, but the more I look at these beautiful old bikes, the more I realize they each have a soul of their own, and I don't believe the same can be said for a custom item. Plus, with all the tweaking and "personalizing," isn't each bike essentially a "custom" of sorts?

USAZorro

I vote "Yes".

One of my enjoyments in the hobby is learning about bicycles - especially some older ones from builders who might not be especially well known, and there's some excitement in finding one that you can ride. Quite by chance, the first English club-style bicycle that I was able to get from a forum member who hasn't popped in for many years was a lovely J.A. Holland. I loved it. Best climbing bike I've ever owned... but it was just a bit too small. Wish I could find another in my size.

Have come across a few other bikes that I've considered "Grail". I traded the J.A. Holland to an older gentleman who had ridden in the same club as him, way back in his youth in England. It fit him, his Hetchins was a bit large for him, and he suggested the trade. It was a pretty bike, and there wasn't anything wrong with it, but it wasn't the "magical" rider that I had imagined, and I always felt overly self-conscious when I rode it. It has found a new home. The other one was a 1977 Raleigh Team Professional. I've just recently worked everything out with it and given it a shakedown. It is a blast to ride, but probably not my choice for an all-day rider.

At some point, I would like to commission a bicycle. The "custom" part would be the paint and doo-dads for me, since a standard 55 or 56 cm frame fits me just fine. I'd have a broader choice, as I will pass on titanium. Would probably go with 953, 853, or plain old 531, depending on how I think I'd use it. I'm partial to Ellis and Winter cycles (though they're hardly the only excellent choices out there). If I were getting a city bike, I'd shoot for a MAP. If a tandem or folder, Bilenkey.

The reason I say "yes" is because the case for having two bicycles can always be made, and I always want something to be working on, or looking forward to.

p.s. Got my wife an '81 Miyata 1000 last winter for $200. It has some paint issues, but it is a very well made and functionally specced bicycle. If you find one your size, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

KonAaron Snake 

Which custom did you commission that you found soulless? Maybe you went with the wrong builder if you think tweaking a stem is the same as having a frame built for you.

Poguemahone

I think part of a grail is you don't know exactly what it is or what it looks like until you actually find it. My experience, anyway.

johnbobey

Oh don't misunderstand...I get the value of made-to-measure, but an object that has been around and ridden and loved for decades has a quality no new bike can, at least not to me. The appeal of Classic and Vintage is that these bikes have stood the test of time and have acquired a patina...scars and bruises that honor the original maker and every rider.

KonAaron Snake 

Which is yours? The Sachs, or the Eisentraut?

Dfrost 

As I read through the posts in this thread, it seems that a frame originally designed for 650B or 559 (26" mountain bike) wheels would be so much better for someone that needs a short frame, to avoid the geometry compromises that several have mentioned. There are lots of rims at many price levels and great road tires in those sizes.

That being said, I was quite surprised that a 48cm Centurion Le Mans RS (700c) that we found for my short-legged daughter-in-law had none of those compromises. Toe clip overlap was also avoided by using a 152mm Sugino crank set, which she loves.

Poguemahone

The Bonanno, prolly. Or the Eisentraut. I like the Sachs but not as much as those two.

thinktubes 

Grail.

If for no other reason, I like a bike with a past.

RiddleOfSteel

I will second this as I was just about to say roughly the same thing, minus the first-hand anecdotal experience.

At our local non-profit bike shop (the others being co-op or retail used/new), there are, IIRC, a pair or at least one Rodriguez road bikes in the sub-53cm size that sport 650 wheels. Large bike geometry and proportion (a good thing) without the hassles and compromises that a 50cm or smaller size bike has to make with 700C wheels.

Geometry in general has been mentioned, and I've sort of built my grail bike as I have found that yes, high-end tubing is nice, as are high-end parts; but front end geometry (head tube angle around or over 74° and geometric trail ranging from 42-50mm), a tight rear triangle, and 70mm+ BB drop all in a 63.5cm-65cm frame size are my 'grail' specs. I'd love a Waterford-era Paramount, but most any '80s and newer Paramounts have high-trail designs (60mm+) and after experiencing a Trek with nearly identical trail and the same 73° head tube angle, I'm not so hot on them any more. My '85 Schwinn Peloton, just one level down, and more or less the same Columbus SL/SP tubing, has a calculated 44mm of trail and I love that entire bike. Over time it has continued to show its worth (it's also gorgeous), increasingly so, and it now rightly sits as the top of my fleet, with components to match.

So if you like a Trek 720, I think finding a great frameset and building it up with whatever vintage or modern pieces, really nice wheels and tires (a big impact on overall ride, to say nothing of looks), would be fantastic. You're not breaking the bank to get a good 'heart' (the frame), that heart is proven to be good, and you'll have a lot more money to put toward components that you'd really like to put on it.

My vote is Grail Geometry + Great Tubing/Quality + Grail Components to equal Grail Bike.

Flog00

How about a new old stock Cannondale (89) with a 51 cm TT?

roadscrape

I have two grail bikes, a 1996 Bianchi Reparto Corse CX in celeste. and an early Riv Ram in metallic pearl orange. I don't want to be buried with them.

I'm yearning for a custom Jeff Lyon L'avecaise. That one I could be buried with.

There are grail bikes, then there are heirloom bikes!

Cheers
Bill in Roswell GA

randyjawa 

For me, grail every time. Sadly, I am not sure what my grail bike is because I have not got it yet. Lucky for me I really enjoy the hunt.

beech333

Don't get the Fuji TS V. I have one and am not impressed. (It is a 58, so too large to offer to you.)

I've never had a Miyata 1000, but I had the step down. Was it a 610? It was awful and I was glad to pass it along.

As for the Trek 720. That is a fantastic bike...every bit as nice as the customs that I have tried, but they have a strong following and command $$$.

Regarding what to choose...that is too personal for me to comment on. I like older bikes, but newer technology(cassettes, compact cranks, etc. are nice too.

3speedslow

Grail. I like my bikes to have a past. Does not mean I would never consider owning a custom bike, just my preference.

davester

I already have a grail bike (Ron Cooper) and it is a custom. When I ordered it, I did a big search for the highest quality frames available and decided that the Cooper had the best workmanship available and was a grail bike. Ron made all his frames himself, and his craftsmanship was held in high repute by pretty much everybody in the bike world at the time. The shop I bought it from indicated that I could either buy a stock frame or for not much more have a custom, albeit with a several month wait time. Since I was on crutches at the time (having been run down by a pickup truck while touring on my previous bike), I decided that I wasn't in a hurry so could wait for the custom. I was measured up for the bike fitting while hanging on my crutches. Here I am, 36 years later, still riding that fantastic bike. I guess I made the right choice.

That said, since I am of average dimensions, given the choice I would go for a grail bike over a custom. Anybody got a stock Herse or Singer that they don't need?

obrentharris 

Patience.
As the experience of @davester points out, your custom bike will have a past soon enough.
At the age of 65 I have recently ordered another custom bike. I look forward to giving it a fine past. (though perhaps not davester's 36 years!)
Brent

ecnewell 

There are some custom builders that I would definitely take over any grail bike. Once in a while I spend an hour perusing the framebuilder forums at www.velocipedesalon.com and just drool. For Ti, check out the work being done at Firefly bicycles out of Boston.

I'd love to get my hands on a Peter Mooney at some point - I saw some of his bikes at the Philly Bike Expo a few years back and was smitten - but I don't have the kind of cash for that right now, so I "settle" for grail bikes. I've been lucky this year, landing a pristine all-original Miyata 1000 that has not disappointed, and a hand-built frame from a small Swiss builder that greatly surpassed my expectations. But that doesn't make me NOT want a custom.

clasher

I'd go custom, I like my miyata 1000 a lot but there are couple things I'd change... it was a good deal but I don't think it's worth the hype it gets, it has a couple quirks about it... can't use modern cantilevers, the fork crown only has a tapped hole in the front for mounting fenders/lights, it still has horizontal dropouts... I certainly wouldn't buy a custom bike with any of those features. I don't mind riding it but I rarely use it anymore, my modern carbon bike is a better fit it seems.

reissue59

You want custom fitted,vintage Steel lugged,your color scheme, from à legend? One word:
Marinoni
1400$ CAN

The Golden Boy 

What don't you like about the TS V?

I see a lot of the nifty features on the upper level Fuji tourers- I don't have an idea of how they ride. I think the biggest draw for me is the gorgeous teal paint job!

Classtime 

If I didn't have a custom, and was given that choice, I'd choose the custom. But now? Would I trade my Sachs for a garage queen Masi GC that fit me?

jimmuller 

Hmm. Try to identify the reasons for grail, the reasons for custom.

Custom is easy. In principle it could fit better than anything else. It could have details intended for specific purposes or riding style.

Grail is attractive for mostly emotional reasons, though it could include bikes from builders with superb reputations for creating performance.

But now for the tough questions. Would you know what you want in a custom? If unusual fit is the goal as stated by the OP, then custom may be the key. Otherwise a custom bike may be not substantially different from whatever grail bike you can find if you look long enough. A "custom" bike built for someone else or a generic build may do just fine.

Personally, I doubt a custom bike would be significantly better for me because I'm a rather average size with no great riding demands. All my bikes are nominally road bikes, though with different personalities, so I would have a hard time explaining to a custom builder what I was looking for.

gomango

What did you order?

I'm working on a custom as well.

Drillium Dude 

Hmmm...

The more I think about it today, I believe instead of a grail bike I just have more and more appreciation for the ones I have. Someone said it a number of posts above: bikes with stories. The more rides, the more stories. I've been riding the heck out of five of my current 8 so they're getting more and more "experience" this year. I hadn't been doing much riding the past couple years, so didn't really think of this aspect of bike appreciation until this summer

I have a custom - my second - and while it's the best fit of all my bikes, it doesn't do anything else any more or less good than my off-the-peg 70s/80s steel bikes. That's the truth. It sure is finished to a very fine degree, tho!

DD