Titanium or Steel
#126
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How I actually came to the conclusion I did was also through experience. Certainly it's going to be easier in some materials rather than others to replicate the feel from another frame/material. The variance in ride characteristics in a given material is so incredibly wide. But I'm sure it could be done. Unfortunately, it would *literally* take a fortune to prove this conclusively.
J.
J.
But... at the end of the day, I will take my Mikkelsen, Lynskey, or whatever I have. YMMY!
#127
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Referring to the bold, I personally disagree based on my experience, but am willing to hear counterthoughts. I do not think it is possible for a carbon frame to have that 'spring' that the Ti and Steel frames I have ridden have. This could be because I haven't ridden the right frame, but I thought that the 'dead' feeling carbon has is pretty much innate to the material. Likewise, not filling rattling stiff steel and Ti has a bit of spring to it, at least when really hammered on. Aluminium... can't say, never ridden a frame made from the material. But, the two Tarmac's and the Giant TCR I have ridden didn't have that wonderful, springy, lively feeling my Lynskey or custom steel roadie have. Even on an MTB, a Niner carbon 29er felt horrible to ride, and the Ti MTB's I have ridden seem to feel alive underneath me.
Not saying carbon is bad, at all. Just that it has never felt right to me. Especially on that ridiculously expensive Niner I rode (that my buddy has since sold), it doesn't feel right. That said, if I ever want a full suspension MTB, I am sure I would go carbon, with that much suspension on either side I really doubt I would feel the frame material.
Not saying carbon is bad, at all. Just that it has never felt right to me. Especially on that ridiculously expensive Niner I rode (that my buddy has since sold), it doesn't feel right. That said, if I ever want a full suspension MTB, I am sure I would go carbon, with that much suspension on either side I really doubt I would feel the frame material.
#129
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Oh yeah, okay. After reconsidering, I guess I have to say I really do miss that road buzz.
#130
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Your Escape 1 is an excellent bike, and well suited to what is designed for. I bought a Specilized Sirrus sport when I got back into cycling, which is very similar to your Giant. Still love that bike, and ride it. But like anything else, allot of this comes down to wanting something different, or a particular characteristic, or some status. And of course there are multitudes of companies to fill those niches. I have a friend with a $5k stereo in his car. Not worth it to me, but he loves it. Some love a custom for them bike, others don't care. I currently have 4 bikes, all for their own reason, if for no other reason that I wanted it and could afford it at the time.
#131
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Carbon doesn't feel dead to me. I've been riding 531, Ti, bonded Al and CF since the early '80s, and I have no idea what that descriptor even means. My current CF, Workswell Chinese R-066, feels as lively as any steel bike I have ever owned. Not quite as comfortable as some, but as lively.
It should probably be noted that I was only 150 lbs at the time, and was a distance runner in high school, so I will likely never have massive amounts of sprinting power, and the slight lateral flex/spring that I love so much wouldn't feel right to a powerful rider. I know a guy that has snapped an S Works frame, and can make the rear wheel rub on anything he rides. Metal.... not for him. Climbing, also not for him.
For me, my riding, and my preference, that barely noticeable spring that metal has feels right to me, rather than the dead feeling carbon has under a similar effort. I guess it feels as if carbon doesn't really want to return the same way steel or Ti does. I doubt if it has the slightest effect on speed or anything, but it does impact the feel of the ride, to me.
#132
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I suppose everyone feels different things when they ride, and I can't say another persons perception is less valid than mine, although they are certainly different. It is hard to describe what that "dead" feeling is, but I have felt it on every carbon frame. And it isn't the lack of road buzz as noodle soup suggested, in fact it has little to do with the way the bike deals with forces vertically. Both Tarmacs I had did a great job of smoothing out the ride, and were stiff, but the way they responded to forces laterally just didn't feel as good to me after riding steel, and then Ti.
It should probably be noted that I was only 150 lbs at the time, and was a distance runner in high school, so I will likely never have massive amounts of sprinting power, and the slight lateral flex/spring that I love so much wouldn't feel right to a powerful rider. I know a guy that has snapped an S Works frame, and can make the rear wheel rub on anything he rides. Metal.... not for him. Climbing, also not for him.
For me, my riding, and my preference, that barely noticeable spring that metal has feels right to me, rather than the dead feeling carbon has under a similar effort. I guess it feels as if carbon doesn't really want to return the same way steel or Ti does. I doubt if it has the slightest effect on speed or anything, but it does impact the feel of the ride, to me.
It should probably be noted that I was only 150 lbs at the time, and was a distance runner in high school, so I will likely never have massive amounts of sprinting power, and the slight lateral flex/spring that I love so much wouldn't feel right to a powerful rider. I know a guy that has snapped an S Works frame, and can make the rear wheel rub on anything he rides. Metal.... not for him. Climbing, also not for him.
For me, my riding, and my preference, that barely noticeable spring that metal has feels right to me, rather than the dead feeling carbon has under a similar effort. I guess it feels as if carbon doesn't really want to return the same way steel or Ti does. I doubt if it has the slightest effect on speed or anything, but it does impact the feel of the ride, to me.
#134
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Or, possibly, I like having a bit of give laterally. As I said, I have ridden stuff cf frames, and I did not like the way they felt compared to steel or ti.
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Apparently carbon has been used for leaf springs in trucks (and can work well there, better than steel).
So maybe carbon could give a springy ride if designed or engineered for that. But the designers aim for maximum power transmission/minimal flex.
So that's what we get to ride and experience....
So maybe carbon could give a springy ride if designed or engineered for that. But the designers aim for maximum power transmission/minimal flex.
So that's what we get to ride and experience....
#136
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Apparently carbon has been used for leaf springs in trucks (and can work well there, better than steel).
So maybe carbon could give a springy ride if designed or engineered for that. But the designers aim for maximum power transmission/minimal flex.
So that's what we get to ride and experience....
So maybe carbon could give a springy ride if designed or engineered for that. But the designers aim for maximum power transmission/minimal flex.
So that's what we get to ride and experience....
#137
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My ericksen Ti cross bike is a game changer. My next roadie will be Ti as well. I am a steel lover, but i am now a ti convert for my daily riders. the ride is dreamlike
#139
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Maybe surprising to some, carbon fiber is probably my second favorite frame material followed by titanium and aluminum based on the various models of each that I've owned and/or ridden. If I could find a titanium bike that rode like steel, I'd buy it and make it my main ride. Unfortunately, I suspect it doesn't exist.
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In some stainless frames, the welds and areas near the welds are apparently more susceptible to corrosion. You can see it in the pictures above, of the rusting frame.
Not sure if this applies to welded 953, but I believe it does.
Not sure if this applies to lugged 953. It may not.
It would be interesting to find out.
Not sure if this applies to welded 953, but I believe it does.
Not sure if this applies to lugged 953. It may not.
It would be interesting to find out.
#142
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Steel and titanium options...
Linskey Premier 56 cm
Steel bikes last a long time, I've got a Breezer Jet Stream '94, and a Norco Team Issue '96, both with Ritchey Logic tubing, and they still are very pleasant to ride, both of them. In 2003, I got an Iron Horse Victory, Scandium tubing, very light at that year, nice to ride. This summer, I wanted to change the 53/39 crankset for a 46/30 one...and the LBS discovered that the seat tube was cracked! So, I couldn't make what I had planned.
I was looking for a frame, Soma was a very good option, and the Ritchey Logic Road frame too. I don't want to have another aluminum bike...and knowing that carbon frames have fatigue issues, I would avoid them too. I saw an interesting offer by Linskey, and decided to go that way...I had always wanted to have a Ti bike...but they were so expensive in the past. I got the Linskey Premier Road frameset, with an Enve 2.0 fork. To build the bike I used many of the old Iron Horse components, and some new ones I had bought for it. I built the bike by myself, a very hard task since I don't have many mechanical skills. But finally, I could do it. I'm happy with the outcome.
#144
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It's been a long time since I had a TI bike and it was a LeMond triple crank. The past 4 yrs my go to bike has been this Guru Sidero (steel) w/SRAM Red and Mavic Ksyrium Elite USTs. It weighs 17 lb 11 oz with just Speedplay Zeros. I love this bike.
#145
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#146
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The reason why you don’t see Ti and steel frames in shops is because carbon fiber is a superior material for bike frames than any metal.
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#147
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I might be looking at buying another bike, told my wife this one would last forever, so I am thinking about Titanium or Steel. I don't race, just ride between ride between 30 and 100 miles. I currently ride about 125 miles a week. I am looking for a nice and comfortable bike. I have looked at Torelli and Moots so far. Any suggestions? Pro/cons?
#148
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Italian builders regularly used brass braze liquid above ~1600F on variants of 4130 Chrome-Moly (Columbus SL and SP) tubing.
4130 softens / anneals around as low as 1,300 but 1,525 is a number I see often (1575F suggested here https://www.astmsteel.com/product/41...4-7218-scm430/ ).
The bike would be painted with a slightly annealed softer joints. They did not go through tempering or hardening.
That is why they had a dampening feel the American builders didn't get with the Easy Flow 45 Silver which would flow around 1150F.
They road better - then they would get softer and eventually crack.
"It is important to realize that fatigue cycles are accumulative." from https://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_en..._in_metals.htm
Last edited by Doge; 09-13-19 at 05:37 PM.
#149
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i have seem plenty of Ti bikes breaking apart from the joints, they do not last forever. Depends on the groupset and wheelset you are building, the frame cost might be only fraction of the total bike cost so just get the latest carbon goodie from big name brands and be prepared to replace the frame or fork then they break.
Low end steel is heavy
Low end Ti is usually a little flexy
Low end CF is a really good value, because it's lighter than either Steel or Ti, and it's easy to tune the ride characteristics.
Last edited by noodle soup; 09-13-19 at 05:31 PM.
#150
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No, it can't get softer with use. Annealing steel can make it more ductile (softer), but its ductility won't increase over time.
If you put annealed metal through cyclic stresses (such as riding a steel-framed bicycle), the metal will become less soft. This is called "work hardening".
Work hardening, alloying, and annealing
They would crack because the annealed joints were weaker when they were made. The joints were soft when they were built, they didn't become soft with use.
EDIT: As was the case with many kooky bicycle myths, Jobst Brandt had some pithy comments to share on this one:
And in response to the question of why the softening of frames wasn't covered in the FAQ:
If you put annealed metal through cyclic stresses (such as riding a steel-framed bicycle), the metal will become less soft. This is called "work hardening".
Work hardening, alloying, and annealing
EDIT: As was the case with many kooky bicycle myths, Jobst Brandt had some pithy comments to share on this one:
What escapes the believers of material change is that neither "softening" or "hardening" effects (sic) the elastic modulus of the metal. A coat hanger and a highspeed steel drill of the same diameter have the same elastic bending stiffness. For small bending deflections, both are equally stiff, although the hardened steel can bend farther than the soft steel and still spring back unchanged. The stress at which it permanently deforms is the measure of "hardness" of the metal, not its elasticity.
The reason this was not in the FAQ may be that the whole subject is so preposterous to engineers, metallurgists, and physicists that they, the people who might explain it, are generally not inclined to bother discussing whether "the moon is made of green cheese" or not.
Last edited by terrymorse; 09-13-19 at 06:18 PM. Reason: added quote from Jobst Brandt