zze86

Looking at selling off a bunch of bikes I have accumulated towards either a grail bike, a Miyata 1000 or Fuji Touring Series V, or a custom bike. My personal preference is a for The Grail as the two listed have unique frame properties that I think would just be cool to have (splined tubing vs quad butted).

Biggest problem is that I'm short and require a small sized bike. For reference I have a 86 Trek 520 in the 19" size that fits just about perfect. I like the TT to be around 51-52cm.

Looking at the geometry charts from the old catalogs a 1989 Miyata 1000lt in 46cm would work but there is not enough info on the Fuji to make a good determination. Interpolating from the old Fuji charts, a 52cm MAY work if I could find some measurements.

Part of the allure of the grail bike is the hunt but doesn't make much sense if they never made one in the first place.

The other option is to get a custom bike made using the Trek as a blueprint for geometry but with all the bells and whistles. Probably in Ti, because custom Ti Grail bike.

Yes, I realize I a vintage Trek 720 is considered as good as either of the Grail bikes, is essentially the custom bike in steel and is a grail bike in its own right for many others but having the 520 already for some reason regulates the 720 to NOT Grail status for me (not that I would be opposed to buying one if it came across my lap for a deal, lol).

Long winded post but thought I should throw everything out there.

So what would you do? Grail or custom? Does anybody have measurements for a Fuji Touring V in 52cm? Either way it will be a looooong time in obtaining one but that's half the fun right?

EDIT: lets not make this just about me. Would love to hear your Grail pursuit stories and/or custom builds.

noglider 

If you were average size, I'd say do whatever saves money because high end stuff has a bit of hype (but not completely). But geometry has improved in small sizes, so get something custom made.

Someone here on BF told his story of buying a custom frame from Bob Jackson, and it worked out well, and the price was surprisingly low, though I don't remember what it was.

16Victor

Why can't your Grail bike indeed be a custom? If the production Grail bike is unobtanium, spend the search time and money on either having one built (or having an existing bike modified) or building your own. There are classes and shops just for that.

Me? I'd seriously love brazing my own bike, designed for my body and with my preferences.

The Golden Boy 

... says the guy who just scored a grail Paramount!

squirtdad

If you are downsizing.....why not do the proper C&V thing and do both.

Get a custom so you have it and can use it, but still keep looking for the Miyata (I am a Miyata fan so I say Miyata) as it will probably hard to find.

as for not you: As much as i would like to get a grail bike (and I could if I pushed), I like the bikes I have and unless I trip over some thing cool/cheap/interesting I am going to wait/save for my grail custom (a Kirk)

Salamandrine 

I did both at the same time by ordering a custom Mercian touring bike. It's more Grail than the bikes you mention IMO, and it was new and custom as well. Took some time but it was worth it. Given that you take a smaller frame size, it may be worth it to you. Bob Jackson is another option that is less costly, though I don't know if they are taking custom orders now. I would also consider 650B if you are going as small as a 46cm frame. For that you might look also at some of the new retro style frames, SOMA et al.

It's a little funny that Miyata 1000 and Fuji Tourings are grail bikes now. They were just a nice production touring bikes BITD, known for being a good bang for the buck. Trek 720 was considered cooler, whether fairly or not.

In the 80s my touring bike was a Univega Specialissima. So, been there, done that...

A bit of an aside: For some reason Miyata has more snob appeal, perhaps mostly from added glow of Sheldon Brown's praise. However, despite notions to the contrary, the Univega Specialissima and Miyata 1000 have the exact same frame. Only difference is the shape of the lug cutouts.

KonAaron Snake 

After watching grail conversations here for several years, I think many of us mean different things. What most people seem to mean is bike they've wanted a lot, but couldn't afford. Usually the bike under discussion isn't that rare, or hard to find. A Miyata 1000 is unlikely to cost over $600, so they're quite obtainable (small size might make that different).

To me a Grail is more than an expensive bike; a Grail is something difficult to find...requiring a lot of effort. It's something that you can go three years without seeing on eBay in ANY size. Or it's something special and meaningful to you...your favorite cyclist's bike.

To others it means something totally unobtainable.

I guess I don't understand your question...a Miyata 1000 is fairly inexpensive. A custom is going to run you $2000+ for an inexpensively builder...plus the build. These two things are very different options.

If you can afford it, get the custom.

cdmurphy

That's a tough one. Cost wise, a grail bike would almost certainly be cheaper, unless you just had to have it now, and couldn't wait for a deal. A full custom frame would probably start at $1500 at the very low end, up to 3-4k for something fancy, or from a big name builder. Add another 1-2k for parts to finish it. Fit and performance wise, custom would likely come out on top. Trying to cram 27" wheels into a small frame leads to a number of compromises. Usually to avoid toe clip overlap, they would slacken the head tube angle, and or lengthen the top tube. Also, the bottom brackets could be as much as an inch higher due to the constraints of a minimum steerer length and a level top tube. All in all, there is a very good chance that the smallest Miyata 1000 or Fuji America wouldn't really fit or ride like their larger models. If you really want a great riding bike, I would seriously look at a custom in a smaller wheel size. 26", or 650c both have some decent road tires available, and would allow for a more proportional frame.

Abe_Froman

Habanero does custom titanium builds for ~$1500.

https://www.habcycles.com/road.html

non-fixie 

I've been thinking about ordering a custom frame from Bob Jackson, as they are very pretty and their prices are quite reasonable, but I'm afraid the result might not provide a better ride than one of my €50 French or Belgian frames.

KonAaron Snake 

I don't know habenero, but:

IME the builder of a ti frame is far more critical than with steel.

I wouldn't trust anyone selling ti for 1500 without a lot of research.

FWIW, if I wanted a custom tourer, and didn't want to pay a fortune, I'd talk to Simon (Hanford cycles) at firth and Wilson. His stuff is priced fairly and very well done.

bikemig 

+ 1. This is why I've avoided a custom bike (even though I've thought about it from time to time). The great thing about vintage bikes is that I can always sell them if they turn out to be un-grail like, Plus I get a lot of pleasure building up a cool old bike.

mstateglfr 

...but they dont build the bike. If I am going to a custom builder, i would expect the company to be the one building the frame. Maybe thats an antiquated viewpoint though.

bikemig 

Aren't you supposed to be on Ragbrai or something like that?

mstateglfr 

heh, had to miss yesterday and today for work.
...so basically i am on this site instead of on the saddle!

gomango

Situations change.

I found a grail for me a few years ago and reached for it.

It will likely be here for a while, as I like to ride it occasionally.

I wouldn't buy it if it were offered to me today though, as our boys have college costs that are enough to make me light headed.

So, I have the bike, but it may need to go bye bye to keep the boys on track.

As for another custom, I figure I have one or two left in me before I retire.

Can't decide what I want though.....

dunrobin

11259470-1474372616194662.jpg
if I needed to purchase a bike right now this is it.
around 1700cdn kinesis granfondo ti.
I don't need it so I won't.
My measurements just can't justify custom.

non-fixie 

True, but building up a cool NEW frame sounds kind of appealing as well, though ...

Abe_Froman

Yea they do. Link below has complete builds. I believe you add $600 to the listed costs for a custom frame.

https://www.habcycles.com/roadpric.html

I was looking around earlier in the year....haphazardly interested in a custom bike myself. These guys seems to be small, but with a pretty good reputation. They use unbutted Ti tubes. Slightly heavier (still only 3.5lbs for a 58cm frame...so can't be THAT much heavier), which apparently makes them stiffer as well. I assume the unbutted tubing and relatively simple construction is what keeps the prices reasonable(relatively...).

mstateglfr 

Habanero has the stock frames build by XACD over in China. I figured their custom frames would also be built by XACD.

My comments are not related to whether Chinese or Taiwanese frames are quality or junk or anything like that. I just simply think of a frame being built in house when i think 'custom'.

Abe_Froman

I agree, I have the same view. A guy, probably late middle age, preferably with large, grizzly beard, in a wood paneled shop somewhere, with a lazy hound napping in the corner, who offers the occasional visitor a beer.

The problem though...is we, as a country anyway, are just no darn good at building things (economically) anymore. You just have to decide what you want. If supporting the grizzly bearded guy and his dog with 40yrs experience is worth paying double, I'm certainly not going to judge. I wish there were more like him. But I'd bet the cost difference is astronomical.

KonAaron Snake 

There are a lot of reasons...insurance is a biggie actually. Even the best US frame builders are hardly getting rich, so I really don't agree with some of what you're saying.

Ti is extremely hard on tooling...the material is expensive....welding mistakes can equate with catastrophic failure. It's a very different material than steel, usually in different widths. Fewer make quality ti frames.

I think the quality difference is more astronomical than the price difference. If you don't want to spend a fortune, there are better options than discount ti IMO.

Abe_Froman

Well I'm certainly not trying to say that most framebuilders are getting rich; quite the opposite...I assume most live in near poverty.

However...not that I'm claiming to have any real knowledge on the quality differences, but why would you say there is an astronomic difference between US made and Chinese made Ti frames?

KonAaron Snake 

I think:

There's likely a big difference in the quality of the ti...and ti in thicker widths tends to be harsh.

I've never ridden a sourced ti frame that was worth a damn...you need people who know ti and build a fair bit of it. It's different than steel.

The difference between quality ti frames is greater than that in steel.

There is a huge difference between custom and mass produced in any material...and it's more obvious in ti.

If there was a Taiwanese builder who worked and built his own ti bikes, and put in the time with each one...id consider it.

bargainguy

I'm short too, and I find a top tube less than 50cm ideal.

I wound up buying three used Indy Fabs, all from women who were no longer riding them for whatever reason. All Crown Jewels, two steel frames and one ti.

They are superb rides. I paid $1000 and $1200 for the steel, $1700 for the ti.

Buying this trio gave me a much better insight on just how well IF tunes their rides. The ride is different on each one, but at this level, it's almost like comparing flavors - they're all really good.

Now if I wanted a custom, I wouldn't hesitate to get an IF. But I'd have to spend a chunk of change to get a new one (probably at least what I spent on the first three combined), and I'm not entirely sure what a new one would give me that the other three don't already have. So for me, the three "grail" bikes work just fine.