Oslo: The Journey to Car Free
#76
Senior Member
That depends on what you're worth per hour and the opportunities you are afforded to sell your skills and what your earnings will buy (see e.g., the Big Mac Index and metrics like residential square footage per occupant) and if your reasons for LCF are ideologically motivated -- such as a perceived need to reduce your carbon footprint -- it would be silly to believe you are saving the globe by walking to work if your "work" involves flying around the globe to sell your services (e.g., service and merchandise exports comprise >50% of the GDP there).
Last edited by McBTC; 05-03-17 at 05:41 PM.
#77
Senior Member
It would be possible for people to live and work closer together, if employers were willing to put effort into it and employees were willing to be flexible in changing work patterns to make it possible. People just want to have an excuse to drive because they don't see the unsustainability in it. The moment they do, it will be amazing how fast the economy will be able to transition to LCF as primary transportation.
It must be a great burden to bear to know that recognizing the God-given rights of the many to individual liberty and the personal freedom to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their families, may result in choices that fall outside the Utopian beliefs of the few who know how the rest of us should live.
#78
Prefers Cicero
It must be a great burden to bear to know that recognizing the God-given rights of the many to individual liberty and the personal freedom to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their families, may result in choices that fall outside the Utopian beliefs of the few who know how the rest of us should live.
#79
Senior Member
It must be a great burden to bear to know that recognizing the God-given rights of the many to individual liberty and the personal freedom to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their families, may result in choices that fall outside the Utopian beliefs of the few who know how the rest of us should live.
EDIT; and... Maybe, Yes, just maybe, it should actually be, a personal RESPONSIBILLITY, to say No, I will NOT do this, (whatever this may be) even tho I may make a $1,000,000,000. for going along with this, (whatever this is)... FUTURE generation matter more and will be better off if I and others didn't do "this"...
Last edited by 350htrr; 05-03-17 at 08:19 PM. Reason: add stuff
#80
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Sustainability goals should be reactive rather than proactive.
#81
Senior Member
#82
Prefers Cicero
#83
Prefers Cicero
I don't know what that means.
Last edited by cooker; 05-03-17 at 09:30 PM.
#84
Senior Member
In lower-income cities, however, affordable purchase prices for a typical family are far below the average cost of a new car. In Hartford, Conn., where the median income is about $29,000, an affordable purchase price is about $8,000 — about a quarter of the average new-car price. ~NYT
#85
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I don't think either of those is true. Nobody is promoting "company towns" and there isn't a big exodus from urban areas. Anyway, "company towns" were often small or medium, rural or semi-rural communities with one major employer who had something of a captive labour market and could dictate or influence whatever happened in that town. I don't see how that applies to anything discussed in this thread, so please elaborate.
I don't know what that means.
I don't know what that means.
I didn't mean to imply there's currently an "exodus from urban areas", I was referring to what happened many decades ago in the desire to escape those communities.
I think some of the ideas proposed here of compact urban communities where one lives, works, and shops in their own local community, combined with current retail, rental properties, and manufacturing consolidation trends could bring about a latter day version of those "company towns".
I'm all for making such compact communities possible, viable, and sustainable for those who want them, but I also believe in making the suburban and rural options equally possible, viable, and sustainable for everyone of every income level who wants them.
By reactive rather than proactive, I mean working to make what people want, and have viable, and sustainable, rather than trying to change what people want and have to fit a viable and sustainable ideal.
#86
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#87
Prefers Cicero
I have no idea what LNCF or LVC mean, and no particular interest in finding out. However, it sounds like you agree with me that subsidizing people's driving is stupid.
#88
Senior Member
I think most persons instinctively understand it's better to choose to LCF than to have no other choice because the economy has been destroyed by ideologues.
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It must be a great burden to bear to know that recognizing the God-given rights of the many to individual liberty and the personal freedom to make decisions in the best interest of themselves and their families, may result in choices that fall outside the Utopian beliefs of the few who know how the rest of us should live.
#90
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Do you really believe anybody in his right mind takes seriously the extreme P&R based (so-called) LCF ideology espoused on this list and elsewhere on BF?
#91
Senior Member
Absurdity can be best demonstrated by a simple substitution of personal computing, demonstrating that angst against 'the car' by the LCF movement has risen to the level of religious dogma and completely outside common sense and reason--e.g.,
... The Spirit of Liberty Speech by Judge Learned Hand where liberty is clearly distinguished from unbridled freedom as including responsibility. The personal computing (including tablet computer and mobile phone) economy and infrastructure have evolved beyond responsibility toward pedestrians and cyclists. There has always been a certain bullying attitude toward those who resist the use of personal computers, first its influx and later/now its ubiquity. Yes, we should have liberty, and no we can't expect utopia, but CAN expect that the personal computing culture be limited to a level that doesn't inconvenience the choice to LCF (Live Computer Free). The fact is that it was disrespectful to liberty to ever have developed the personal computing culture and sprawl beyond the common ability to function societally without operating a computer. The moment operating a computer became a social-economic pressure, liberty should have taken precedence and steps taken to prevent people's lives from becoming structured around the ability to operate computers in all the ways that have become common.
Last edited by McBTC; 05-04-17 at 09:44 AM.
#92
Prefers Cicero
You're fond of saying what is and isn't being said, and frankly I find it a bit arrogant. You may not agree with my opinion, but it's my opinion none the less that some of what's been said in LCF does suggest a contemporary version of the company town.
I didn't mean to imply there's currently an "exodus from urban areas", I was referring to what happened many decades ago in the desire to escape those communities.
I didn't mean to imply there's currently an "exodus from urban areas", I was referring to what happened many decades ago in the desire to escape those communities.
I think some of the ideas proposed here of compact urban communities where one lives, works, and shops in their own local community, combined with current retail, rental properties, and manufacturing consolidation trends could bring about a latter day version of those "company towns".
I'm all for making such compact communities possible, viable, and sustainable for those who want them, but I also believe in making the suburban and rural options equally possible, viable, and sustainable for everyone of every income level who wants them.
I'm all for making such compact communities possible, viable, and sustainable for those who want them, but I also believe in making the suburban and rural options equally possible, viable, and sustainable for everyone of every income level who wants them.
Those aren't that different. To make stuff sustainable you have to change it and the people are going to have to accept the change.
#93
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Sorry, I didn't get that you were talking about the past exit from urban areas, but I still don't get the reference to "company towns". People who moved in the 1950s or 1960s to suburban Detroit or Long Island or Burbank or whatever, weren't trying to escape from under the thumb of a mill or mine conglomerate that dominated their lives, which is how I understand company towns, and I don't see how moving back to a downtown location would make them anymore vulnerable to that than people in a rural or suburban area.
I don't think "everybody of every income level" should have whatever they want, or that suburban and rural (or urban) options should be "equally possible", because that would have to involve some kind of equalization payment. People should have what they can afford, and if it costs more to live in the city due to real estate costs, they should personally bear it, and if it costs more to live in the country due to road and infrastucture costs they should personally bear that.
Those aren't that different. To make stuff sustainable you have to change it and the people are going to have to accept the change.
I don't think "everybody of every income level" should have whatever they want, or that suburban and rural (or urban) options should be "equally possible", because that would have to involve some kind of equalization payment. People should have what they can afford, and if it costs more to live in the city due to real estate costs, they should personally bear it, and if it costs more to live in the country due to road and infrastucture costs they should personally bear that.
Those aren't that different. To make stuff sustainable you have to change it and the people are going to have to accept the change.
Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I think there's too much of the former because of those who want to feel superior to the "average person".
#94
Prefers Cicero
oops -I accidentally rewrote this post instead or adding a new one. See quoted excerpt in post 96 for original content.
Last edited by cooker; 05-05-17 at 09:37 AM.
#95
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... The Spirit of Liberty Speech by Judge Learned Hand where liberty is clearly distinguished from unbridled freedom as including responsibility. The personal computing (including tablet computer and mobile phone) economy and infrastructure have evolved beyond responsibility toward pedestrians and cyclists. There has always been a certain bullying attitude toward those who resist the use of personal computers, first its influx and later/now its ubiquity. Yes, we should have liberty, and no we can't expect utopia, but CAN expect that the personal computing culture be limited to a level that doesn't inconvenience the choice to LCF (Live Computer Free). The fact is that it was disrespectful to liberty to ever have developed the personal computing culture and sprawl beyond the common ability to function societally without operating a computer. The moment operating a computer became a social-economic pressure, liberty should have taken precedence and steps taken to prevent people's lives from becoming structured around the ability to operate computers in all the ways that have become common.
#96
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I suppose that's true, that I want people to meet the solutions, instead expecting other people solve it for them. Again, as I often repeat, this isn't about you, but many people in rural areas (if they are not farmers or other obligatory rural workers), are living less sustainably than they would in a denser community, because of higher mileage, more distributed electric grid, larger land footprint, less efficient delivery of services and so on. How do we solve that for them?
I believe things will work out as what we have today doesn't represent the future, things will continue to improve, and without pulling the rug out from under people.
#97
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There are issues that can't be solved in every circumstance, I don't see non "obligatory" rural residents as an important issue, but just a judgmental distraction.
I believe things will work out as what we have today doesn't represent the future, things will continue to improve, and without pulling the rug out from under people.
I believe things will work out as what we have today doesn't represent the future, things will continue to improve, and without pulling the rug out from under people.
It's not just that people who move out into the country are trying to live there without developing the area, they are often betting on the land-value appreciation that comes with development, and doing what they can to attract developers and the payoff that comes with them 'biting the hook.'
#98
Senior Member
You are using the term, dogma, in a way that has nothing to do with its actual meaning. If anything, it is the driving culture that has become dogmatic, insofar as people drive for no other reason than the ingrained idea that it's "just what you do"...
Personal computing is a totally different type of technology with totally different effects and dependencies....
Personal computing is a totally different type of technology with totally different effects and dependencies....
#99
Senior Member
Cycling can be -- and, for most everybody on Bike Forums is -- a hobby and a bike-centered lifestyle choice. But, on the LCF sub-forum, the bike is just an aspect of a lifestyle choice that especially touches on matters of politics not cycling.
#100
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I suppose that's true, that I want people to meet the solutions, instead expecting other people solve it for them. Again, as I often repeat, this isn't about you, but many people in rural areas (if they are not farmers or other obligatory rural workers), are living less sustainably than they would in a denser community, because of higher mileage, more distributed electric grid, larger land footprint, less efficient delivery of services and so on. How do we solve that for them?