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Di2: I am finally a luddite

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Di2: I am finally a luddite

Old 11-20-18, 10:14 AM
  #1  
Kapusta
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Di2: I am finally a Luddite

I've never considered myself a luddite or retro-grouch in regards to cycling. Yes, I greet some new products or standards with a sense of skepticism, but I am open-minded and often won over (other times not). In other words, there are things I do not embrace, but I think I can usually explain my reasons, at least in terms of why they do not work for ME.

Then came Di2 shifting.

It just feels plain wrong to me. At first I tried to explain this with the same reasons I see other people reject it (battery life, can't fix it, too expensive, etc.). But the more I learned about it, I realize it probably DOES perform just fine, maybe even better, and has other advantages, and in reality the battery issue is a non-issue. But I still find myself recoiling at the thought of having it on one of my bikes. And price is not the issue, either. I don't think I would use it even if you gave it to me.

And then I realized, it is simple as the fact that I don't want electronic stuff (in particular anything with a computer in it) integrated into my bike. I don't care if it works better (and it probably does). It goes against a key part of what I love so much about bikes, which is the "analog" and "mechanical" purity of them. They may be incredibly complex (like my full suspension mtb), but all mechanical nonetheless. And it just feels wrong to me to screw that up.

And THEN I realized, this is what it means to be a Luddite. To reject something that is probably better based on nothing more than my gut reaction that a certain technology is out of place.

Of course, as long as decent mechanical shifting remains available - and pretty much anything above wal-mart level drivetrains made in the past 15 years shift flawlessly in my experience - I'm fine with Di2 being pushed. Just not my cup of tea.

I think the key to being a happy Luddite who does not irritate everyone around you is realizing that you are, in fact, a Luddite. The moment you start trying to justify it logically is when you become the old-man yelling at the clouds.


Last edited by Kapusta; 11-20-18 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:17 AM
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I've always considered myself a Luddite, and instinctively hate everything new and different.

Oddly, in my case, Di2 and hydraulic disc brakes (which I got simultaneously, because they were bundled at the time) were radical improvements, and I became an instant fan.

I did however attach them to a steel bike.

Oh, and from Wikipedia:

The Luddites were a secret oath-based organization[1] of English textile workers in the 19th century, where a radical faction destroyed textile machinery as a form of protest. The group was protesting the use of machinery in a "fraudulent and deceitful manner" to get around standard labour practices.[2] Luddites feared correctly that the time spent learning the skills of their craft would go to waste as machines would replace their role in the industry.[3] It is a misconception that the Luddites protested against the machinery itself in an attempt to halt the progress of technology.

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Old 11-20-18, 10:25 AM
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I'[d like to try it just to see what it's like. Same with riding a carbon frame, which I have never done.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott

Oh, and from Wikipedia:
Yeah, I know the term is now used slightly differently (I don’t think Di2 is going to replace me on the bike) but it it seems to be the best match I know of.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:32 AM
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You do you. Be happy. Hurt no one.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:50 AM
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How thinly can you slice the baloney?

Shimano has so many component groups that I can't keep track of them all anymore. The higher priced ones really are nicer but even the Walmart level ones do the job. As you progress from the lowest to the highest prices, performance improves at pretty much a steady arithmetic rate. I can feel a difference between the highest and the lowest but I can't feel a difference if I move up or down just one group level. Price, however shoots up at a geometric rate. We get lots of posts asking where the "best bang for the buck" level is. I used to say probably at the Tiagra or 105 level. Today I'm thinking that, other than pride of ownership, it probably lies at one of the lower levels.

It's the job of the Shimano engineers and marketers to extract the greatest amount money from us that they can for functional bicycle components. It looks to me like they're doing that job rather well.

In the interest of full disclosure, this all comes from a non apologetic retro grouch. YMMV.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
It just feels plain wrong to me.
Yep, it involves the use of a motor to assist in operation of the drive train; thus, it is an abomination.
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Old 11-20-18, 10:57 AM
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I love my vintage steel, I love my bar end friction shifters, sort of OK with the old school centerpulls. That being said, I also love my carbon, love my Di2 and disc brakes too. There is room in my garage for all of it. I dont get why you have to be for one or the other. Do you go to a buffet and only eat green peas? I have 6 bikes with 5 different shifting mechanisms. I sometimes smile when I reach to the "bar ends" on my Di2, or try to wiggle the brake levers to shift the old school steel bikes. It makes me a little skitzo, but I'm enjoying every mile. Just ride, its all good. 😀
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Old 11-20-18, 11:03 AM
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I am honestly hoping this thread does not become a debate on the merits of Di2 or for people to pass judgment on other’s tastes and choices.

It is simply an insight into Ludditology.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
the "analog" and "mechanical" purity of them.
Di2 doesn't make cycling any more or less "Pure" than did lycra, derailleurs or helmets.


-Tim-
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Old 11-20-18, 11:11 AM
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Bicycle enthusiasm itself is, to some degree, Luddite as even the crudest powered engine is probably more efficient ("better") than human leg muscles.

I have a similar visceral reaction against electronic shifting for a slightly different reason, but it is also a purist approach. OP identifies the "impurity" as being a computerization of part of the workings of the bike, mine stems from a sense that it is wrong to power any part of the actual workings of the bike. Up to now, all the movements of all moving parts were powered directly by the muscles of the rider and/or gravity/wind. To me, that's part of the romance of the machine--it's all human powered. The introduction of any powered motor, even if all it's doing is moving the chain from one gear to another, breaks with that. I realize it's irrational to differentiate between the effort needed to move a finger far and hard enough to move a cable and the effort needed to push a button, but I really want it to be my muscle power that's moving that cable, not some motor that's just obeying a command input.

When I say it's irrational, I mean it, but I'm into biking as opposed to other forms of fitness largely because I enjoy it. Enjoyment is not a "rational" thing.

BTW, those of you using Di2, you're not wrong, you just don't belong to my weird cult of one.

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Old 11-20-18, 11:12 AM
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I never knew what I was missing until I rode a Di2. It is just so precise and fast, and the sychro shifting...wow.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Di2 doesn't make cycling any more or less "Pure" than did lycra, derailleurs or helmets.


-Tim-

The line is entirely between "pure" and "something other than" is entirely subjective. None of those would detract from what I would consider completely human-powered biking.

OP and me both admit this is an irrational feeling, but I'll bet I can find a line where you consider it "impure", it just won't be the same one. For example, is riding an ebike "pure" cycling in your mind?
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Old 11-20-18, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Bicycle enthusiasm itself is, to some degree, Luddite as even the crudest powered engine is probably more efficient ("better") than human leg muscles.

I have a similar visceral reaction against electronic shifting for a slightly different reason, but it is also a purist approach. OP identifies the "impurity" as being a computerization of part of the workings of the bike, mine stems from a sense that it is wrong to power any part of the actual workings of the bike. Up to now, all the movements of all moving parts were powered directly by the muscles of the rider and/or gravity/wind. To me, that's part of the romance of the machine--it's all human powered. The introduction of any powered motor, even if all it's doing is moving the chain from one gear to another, breaks with that. I realize it's irrational to differentiate between the effort needed to move a finger far and hard enough to move a cable and the effort needed to push a button, but I really want it to be my muscle power that's moving that cable, not some motor that's just obeying a command input.

When I say it's irrational, I mean it, but I'm into biking as opposed to other forms of fitness largely because I enjoy it. Enjoyment is not a "rational" thing.

BTW, those of you using Di2, you're not wrong, you just don't belong to my weird cult of one.
It may be a cult of 2. I mentioned the computer aspect, but the motor part is also part of it.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Di2 doesn't make cycling any more or less "Pure" than did lycra, derailleurs or helmets.
-Tim-
That’s your take on the (entirely subjective) matter, and that is fine.


Last edited by Kapusta; 11-20-18 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:31 AM
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So a "Luddite" in this case is like a bike-electronics-Vegan? So that would mean the Luddite wouldn't use any of these helpful electronic devices when riding: headlights, taillights, speed sensors, cadence sensors, electronic shifting, power meters, heart rate monitors, no Google Maps on the cell phone when lost, no recording and analyzing the ride via cell phone (Strava)?
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Old 11-20-18, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed
I dont get why you have to be for one or the other.
You don't, but there's also nothing wrong with people who just want to use one or the other, either.

I totally relate to your finding making the wrong move amusing--I do the same sort of thing when I go from flat bar to drops and vice verse.

When you get down to it, these are really mostly issues of taste, which is why they can be argued to death without anyone learning anything.

Notice that the OP never claimed to be "right" and is just trying to explain a feeling. Stuff like that is fun to talk about. Calling someone out because they don't share your feelings would be stupid. Just to be clear, I don't think you're doing that, and thoroughly enjoyed your post. I'm just kind of agreeing with and extending it.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:33 AM
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I'm not a luddite. I love digital technology and lots of other things that are new. I make my living as an IT person.

But there are some worlds where I don't want digital electronics. My preference is to keep it out of my musical life. I'm a semi-professional singer. I rehearse three hours a week and perform a few times a year. I use sheet music on paper, and I use the kind of pencil that needs sharpening. I have not learned any scoring software, and I have not digitized any of my music. When I'm making music, I use a different part of my brain, and that part was developed before I ever saw a computer. It gives me a rest in a way. I like being a pencil and paper guy three hours a week.

I tried my sister in law's bike with Di2. It works great. I own lots of bikes, and all of them are old. I'm not close to buying a new bike. If I were to buy a new bike, and if it were to come with electronic shifting, and if it doesn't add unreasonable cost, I wouldn't mind. But right now, it's very expensive and not worth it for me.

I understand the preference that @Kapusta and others have, wanting to keep digital stuff out of the bike realm.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Bicycle enthusiasm itself is, to some degree, Luddite as even the crudest powered engine is probably more efficient ("better") than human leg muscles.

I have a similar visceral reaction against electronic shifting for a slightly different reason, but it is also a purist approach. OP identifies the "impurity" as being a computerization of part of the workings of the bike, mine stems from a sense that it is wrong to power any part of the actual workings of the bike. Up to now, all the movements of all moving parts were powered directly by the muscles of the rider and/or gravity/wind. To me, that's part of the romance of the machine--it's all human powered. The introduction of any powered motor, even if all it's doing is moving the chain from one gear to another, breaks with that. I realize it's irrational to differentiate between the effort needed to move a finger far and hard enough to move a cable and the effort needed to push a button, but I really want it to be my muscle power that's moving that cable, not some motor that's just obeying a command input.

When I say it's irrational, I mean it, but I'm into biking as opposed to other forms of fitness largely because I enjoy it. Enjoyment is not a "rational" thing.

BTW, those of you using Di2, you're not wrong, you just don't belong to my weird cult of one.
I don't think your feeling is weird. I completely understand where you are coming from. After shooting, processing and printing a lot of B&W film, the same sort of feeling is why I have never gotten into digital photography like I did with film. I use a digital camera because, for me, B&W is not practical now a days, but I reject sitting in front of a computer painstakingly manipulating images digitally, whereas when I printed my own work I would painstakingly burn and dodge until I got a print that was as least somewhat satisfied with.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Riveting
So a "Luddite" in this case is like a bike-electronics-Vegan? So that would mean the Luddite wouldn't use any of these helpful electronic devices when riding: headlights, taillights, speed sensors, cadence sensors, electronic shifting, power meters, heart rate monitors, no Google Maps on the cell phone when lost, no recording and analyzing the ride via cell phone (Strava)?

Not my version--except for the shifting, none of that is moving anything on the bike.

I don't want most of the sensors because I don't really care about any of that data, but GPS, lights and speed monitoring are all things I use electronics for.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:39 AM
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I don't love the idea of Di2 being electronic, but if it is water/ice/mud proof, I can see it being a pretty nice upgrade from cables that freeze, rust, get sticky, etc. One other feature, which I can't determine if it is part of Di2 from a quick web search, is whether you can run it in what I'd call "watts-priority," meaning it shifts automatically to maintain a specific wattage +/-, or "speed priority," in addition to manual selection. That could be pretty cool, especially if you could program intervals. Some recent experiences with mechanical brakes have me thinking hydraulic brakes have some real utility in cold weather as well, and have me wondering if hydraulic shifters wouldn't be a bad idea. Seems like that's what internal cable routing is all about. It would be interesting to see an A vs B vs C comparison of these systems in cold, mud, slushy/snowy wet conditions.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Riveting
So a "Luddite" in this case is like a bike-electronics-Vegan? So that would mean the Luddite wouldn't use any of these helpful electronic devices when riding: headlights, taillights, speed sensors, cadence sensors, electronic shifting, power meters, heart rate monitors, no Google Maps on the cell phone when lost, no recording and analyzing the ride via cell phone (Strava)?
No, a Luddite in this case (me) is not an electronics vegan. The Luddite just does not want e-shifting

Pretty simple, really. Why complicate it?

But if your post was intended to ask why I do not feel the same about lights and google maps (rather than to make snarky, judgemental implications about my subjective tastes), it is because they are not integrated into my bike.


Last edited by Kapusta; 11-20-18 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 11-20-18, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I tried my sister in law's bike with Di2. It works great. I own lots of bikes, and all of them are old. I'm not close to buying a new bike. If I were to buy a new bike, and if it were to come with electronic shifting, and if it doesn't add unreasonable cost, I wouldn't mind. But right now, it's very expensive and not worth it for me.
That's the conclusion I arrived at when I ordered my custom ti frame four or so years ago. I had heard it works great by people who have it, and the frame builder/LBS owner agreed. But he also said it's very expensive. I was paying a lot already and wanted to strike a balance between a mortgage payoff present to myself and saving more for retirement, so I went with DA 9000 and have been happy. Except for one frayed cable stop earlier this year, the drivetrain has been tuned up maybe 2 or 3 times, including the initial tune up after a month or so of riding.

BTW...I am a paper guy in at least one sense: I don't use GPS for rides in unfamiliar places. Rather, I use PGS: Paper Guidance System (a/k/a cue sheets).
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Old 11-20-18, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
That's the conclusion I arrived at when I ordered my custom ti frame four or so years ago. I had heard it works great by people who have it, and the frame builder/LBS owner agreed. But he also said it's very expensive. I was paying a lot already and wanted to strike a balance between a mortgage payoff present to myself and saving more for retirement, so I went with DA 9000 and have been happy. Except for one frayed cable stop earlier this year, the drivetrain has been tuned up maybe 2 or 3 times, including the initial tune up after a month or so of riding.

BTW...I am a paper guy in at least one sense: I don't use GPS for rides in unfamiliar places. Rather, I use PGS: Paper Guidance System (a/k/a cue sheets).
Ha, I was thinking about making a comment about GPS mapping. That's had a bigger impact on my riding than Di2. I can ride complicated routes that are completely unfamiliar to me, so I've been on a lot of interesting roads. I don't really think it's a crutch or a watering down of the riding experience, though.

My gravel / all-day ride / adventure bike has mechanical shifting, and I don't miss the Di2 there. My pace is much more relaxed, and I don't need to shift quite as much. The fast-for-me group rides on rolling hills is where the Di2 has the most impact. I'm always in the right gear.

The local riders and I are getting older. And e-bikes are getting refined. It'll be interesting to see how e-bike assist works out. Will it be annoying to the other riders, or just used as an occasional assist so they don't have to wait for the slowest climber?
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Old 11-20-18, 12:10 PM
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Even technology has a Peter principal..

I have a very nice collection of Paper large panel Maps, bought in bookseller's shops as I went,

on my several bike tours 'Across the Pond'...







...

Last edited by fietsbob; 11-22-18 at 10:20 AM.
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