spectastic

one of those days where the world's out to get you

otoh, 60 fps is looking fabulous, though i'm not sure whether my processor will like it

mattm

Red Kite 35+, me getting 2nd by a few inches. (from pov of guy who got 4th, not my video)

What really screwed me over was the guys taking corner 3 wide, opening a big gap to the front 4 guys.. wtf.

(skip to about 5:00)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40m3...utu.be&t=5m19s

Ygduf

fun video! I saw my fat ass a little even.

spectastic

should've attacked at 4:00.

wktmeow

Came into it with a cold but expected it to go better than that still

burger0014

Final Lap of today's crit. 2nd overall, a few more feet and I would have had it. Time to upgrade

mattm

Damn, that blows!

Hope nobody got too hurt.

carpediemracing 

I'd have said 4:25, as the guy pulls off the to left.

When you're going fast and then do a short rise it's a great time to push hard, especially if that rise ends with a slight curve. You can really punch up a short rise. It's super hard for the riders ahead to respond to a move that started on a flatter/faster bit because they have to accelerate on a rise.

It seems the positions were static after that rise at 4:25, mainly due to the curves, the sustained speed, and the fact that it seems pretty hard to stay directly on wheels (or maybe the wind was such that sitting directly on wheels wasn't a big deal).

If you'd gone at 4:00 everyone could have reacted to you. They'd be on the faster/downhill section, you'd be doing 90% of the work blasting a hole in the wind. If you'd gotten around orange/black, tucked in a bit, then around blue/white in front of him, tucked in a touch, then gotten next to that guy in all white (3rd wheel at the little bump rise) I think that'd have been ideal. You could have launched from next to the white guy on the bump rise and then see where the move took you. 100% commitment when you go, then you back off if you feel like it in case someone is able to follow, but the first jump needs to be 100%.

Generally speaking I move up on downhills/tailwinds, I attack going into uphills. Normally attacking going into uphills is not good because you blow before the top. Most riders say attack over the top, which is true for actual hills. For me I don't race long hills so attacking going into the bump-rises works well, preserves my momentum, builds a bit difference in speed, and my inertia is way positive meaning I'm accelerating on the flats while others are actually decelerating on an uphill. Bigger difference in acceleration than if they were simply sustaining speed.

spectastic

~4:00 is where the downhill section is roughly. But it's always high speed there, so it wouldn't have been worth it. looks like someone else had the same idea you had at 4:25, because that was the final swarm.

carpediemracing 

The problem with tactics is that the good moves are usually obvious or standard. It's sort of like the rush to the cobbles in Paris Roubaix, or for the base of a narrow climb in the Tour. Everyone knows that's the best thing to do but it's a matter of executing it.

You didn't have data overlaid so I don't know what you were doing, but on the run up to the little bump rise, meaning just before 4:25, a lot of the guys looked sort of spun out. I mean, okay, they could probably go a bit faster if they had to, but their cadences were definitely pretty high. If it were me I'd want to experiment with some big rings there, like the 55T tandem ring I have somewhere around here. Using a 55x11 might buy you only 4 or 8 rpm or something but it might be enough to allow you to move up pretty hard instead of just maintaining position.

spectastic

not doing as well as I would like in these 3/4 races now. open to critique. looks like i didn't pick the best line, getting stuck behind this guy while the final lead out went around the outside. I also couldn't get my power up, which may be because I averaged 400+W in the last 90 seconds, and wore myself out. strava data here:https://www.strava.com/activities/64...ysis/2205/2297

something about these 3/4 races make them seem off somehow. I seem to get much better flow in the p1/2/3 race, and much better power numbers too. trying to figure out what it could be.. is it because I didn't warm up right after a full day of sitting on my ass? the 100F heat vs the 93F heat? getting stuck near the front too much and having to react to everything? but if I'm not in the front, and a swarm comes along, I loose 10 spots in about 3 seconds

3/4

1/2/3

carpediemracing 

I only watched this briefly, once, but it looks like you're not riding scared of the wind. You're in the wind a lot, unless stuff is different from what it appears to be.

At 2:30 or so (1:45 to go so I started looking there for your "90 seconds 400w") you're in the wind. You really don't get out of it.

At 3:30 or so you're starting to go but you're not on wheels. You should be glued to a wheel, a good one, at that point. If the wheel you're on starts to slow you need to be looking around, how do you get around the guy, where is the train leaving the station. Left side went so you should have started looking left, start moving left. Save your jump, have faith in your jump.

You're in the wind for 20 seconds for the sprint. That's a massive, massive sprint. That is so long. If you could stay on a wheel for 10 extra seconds (like follow the wheels to the left at 3:30) and then jump you'd be introducing a fresh new jump into the sprint. Based on everyone going about the same speed that could make a difference. If you're in the wind with everyone else then you're drag racing watts/CdA and you're either going to annihilate people or nothing is going to happen. If you're going to annihilate people, fine, but if you're not one of them then you need to be on wheels longer. Instead of dying in the last 10 seconds you should start smashing them at that point.

I don't know the speeds but for example when my teammate led me out in a race in 2010 he was going 35 mph on a slight downhill, fast enough that no one wanted to even come up next to me. My heart rate dropped from 168 to 163 bpm, enabling me to do a pretty long sprint up the finishing hill. If you did the same thing you probably could have been semi-resting for an extra 8-10 seconds, then jumped as hard as you could.

I don't remember what Tours I reviewed but I watched maybe 3 Tours worth of sprint finishes on a particularly long trainer ride, probably back in 2007 or so, when I first started doing helmet cam stuff. I found that it seemed the average sprint winner went about 10-13 pedal strokes in the wind, about 8 seconds. The exception was the Champs, the winner was usually in the wind for a solid 20 seconds. I think this was back when the Champs was a downhill finish so speeds were really high and the way the finale plays out it seems like it's hard to hold back someone that's on fire.

I went out shortly after that and did a pretty big summer race where I never placed and rarely finished. I marked off where to jump to do about 10-12 pedal revs. It was super late, I felt like the race would be over at that point (100m to go?), but I decided to give it a shot and see how it went. Uphill finish also, so usually better for those that jump early. Early jumpers accelerate on flat terrain then only have to maintain speed up the hill; I'd have to accelerate on the uphill bit. I suffered like a dog and made it to the bell in reasonable position (I think I was 20-30 back at the bell). I moved up a bit, went around the final turn, and waited waited waited as everyone jumped. I followed some random wheel to the left side so I could go left when I hit my mark. Hit my mark, jumped as hard as I could on the left curb. I was probably 10th-15th spot when I jumped, I accelerated like a rocket, I threw my bike for third at the line. First two guys were well clear in the sprint and both upgraded to 2 shortly after; one of them as a Cat 4 the prior year fell in the last lap of that race and still got 3rd in the field sprint (1 mile lap!!!!! he crashed half a lap to go, got back on his bike, and sprinted through the field to get 3rd.. he's a Cat 1 now).

Anywho... Try to ride more scared in the 3-4 race. Sit in more. Tailgun. Coast a lot. Accelerate out of the turns or whatever and then soft pedal, coast, tuck. Sit close to other riders, closer than normal. Drink fluids. Carry ice cold water. Be one of the swarmers on the last lap, but not leading the swarm, always follow someone else swarming. Who has the reputation of tailgunning the whole race and then popping up for the sprint. Aim for no plain pavement on the video until the last lap - there should always be a bike in the screen. Look for the Driveway version of me, the guy who is at the back at the bell and vying for the win at the finish. Try not to see more than 60 seconds of wind before the bell. Use big gears when moving up, don't spin your legs too fast and spike your HR. If it's fast then tuck - you might be able to coast and stay on wheels, vs pedaling. Use the most aero wheels you have, the tallest rear wheel for sure.

For the finish consider the possibilities of where/when you want to go. All these different finishes are screwing me up but it seems that you all know them. Think of how long you want to go. 10 second sprint? 15 second sprint? When a guy goes with commitment stay on their wheel. Don't try to beat them right away, just sit and sit until it feels sort of unfair and you start feeling sorry for the guy, then kill him. haha.

Finally, and this is new for me, think about your sprinting technique. Someone pointed out that I show some poor habits in my sprint, that I could increase my power based on focusing on some technique. I have to assimilate the whole thing but it seems legit. I've felt like my sprint's been pretty lacking in the last 10 years, maybe it has something to do with that. For you consider your jump gearing, jump cadence, when you shift, etc. Try to put a day for experimenting with your jump, what rpm nets you the best peak power, what is your best 5 and 10 second power (what kind of cadence). Then try to replicate your best set up in the race.

spectastic

as always, awesome info. thanks

I suppose I need to be better with positioning on bell lap, and be proactive in being top 5 coming out of the final turn in to the straightaway. It's always a gamble trying to predict where the swam is coming from, but I suppose there's more certainty when the speed is low enough such that you can anticipate a swarm, and jump on those wheels. the thing with that finish is that everyone has realized by now that the finish is very fast, and the slingshot thing doesn't really work that well, unless you're an awesome sprinter, which I'm not right now. That's why I tried to jump early, when the guy in front of me was clearly fading. I also had a brief klutz moment where I hit the lever and it wouldn't shift. but the bigger fish to fry is probably the wind situation that you talked about

carpediemracing 

If you sit further back for longer, say until going into the last lap, then you'll be much more sheltered, saving a ton of energy. This will impact your sprint in a good way, even if your numbers don't seem super high compared to stuff you see thrown around. Thing is that if you're sheltered you can do a lower max jump, lower sustained sprint, and still come out ahead of the others.

In one race Ian, a friendly rival (we mark each other in field sprints but don't race against each other), came up to me after the race. He said I had to have hit 1600w because he hit 1400w I beat him by a lot, enough so that I coasted/soft pedaled for a while before he rolled up to me, and he was the guy that placed behind me in the sprint. He was shocked when he only saw 1200w peak. I jumped "super early" for that course, 14 second sprint, 37 mph. I sustained 900w. So not a spectacular sprint, but it was effective. Video . If you look at the start, see where the course goes into the woods? That's where Ian caught up to me after the line. At the start of the race clip it takes about 40 seconds to get from the start (0:34) to about where Ian rolled up to me (about 1:13). I think I beat him by 30 feet?

PepeM

Can someone do one of those long and awesome CDR 'how to race' explanations for someone who can't sprint?

spectastic

another thing I learn from the videos is to know ahead of time who the weak guys are, and who might have a greater chance to gap you and screw you over for the sprint.

carpediemracing 

To beat a sprinter you must know the sprinter.

Sprinter della Casa: How to - Beat a Sprinter

carpediemracing 

Gaps going into the last 500m are critical. You get it less with more experienced riders. I've gone into sprints a bit too optimistically and then I realize, oh, I'm not going to make it to the line. So I check to make sure I'm clear and pull off, coast, before I leave too much of a gap. They might have to close 1.5 bike lengths but not 5 bike lengths.

Also it gets me that guys are sprinting sort of apart from one another. Stay on wheels until it's time to go. Reason why more experienced riders don't get gapped as much is that they know to stay on wheels until it's time to go and they generally don't contest if they're not going to be a factor.

PepeM

Cheers for that.

canuckbelle

Final two laps from yesterday's Stage 6 of the Georgia Cycling Gran Prix.

furiousferret

Wish I was fast enough that I only needed a rear view camera!

spectastic

2 primes, and 5th. but i rolled in late and none of it counted...... got gapped on the outside final turn and fought like hell to gain positions back. that's what i get for not sticking to the inside.

1/2/3 race. hung on. won a prime. tried for prime and stay away, but peloton timed it well and caught all 3 of us

canuckbelle

Last two laps of the rainy Stage 2 of the Georgia Cycling Gran Prix:



Full race:

jacksonhandy

I did the Cat 4/5. Just before the storm. Temps were like 101. I'm fat, that back side hill killed me. Got dropped, but didn't get lapped until the last time back up the hill on the final lap.

Awesome job and congrats on the win.

spectastic

I'm getting pretty irritated of the 3/4 field at this point. jumped early again. I could feel the lead fading, so I instigated the attack before anybody else behind catches me off guard.

did ok in the 1/2/3 though.