aaronmichael

Hello All,

I have a customer that comes into the shop I work at with broken spokes quite often. He weighs probably 275-300lbs. He got rid of his old bike and bought a new one (not from me), thinking this would solve the problem. But low and behold, he is still breaking a spoke or two every couple weeks. He's riding a Jamis Boss (7 speed freewheel) at the moment, 26" rims. I think the ultimate solution is replacing it with a good heavy duty rim with good spokes. Problem here is, does any manufacture even make GOOD quality freewheel rims? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

Bill Kapaun

Find someone that knows how to build wheels instead of just replace spokes.
Free Wheel or Free Hub shouldn't make a difference to the spokes.

You might also specify WHICH rim, spoke & hub being used + spoke count.

FBinNY 

The rim doesn't care what kind of hub you have (except for disc brake specific rims), so all that matters is the hole count.

I'd build this bike with something like a DT Alpine single 2.3/2.0 spoke on the right rear, and Alpine-3 2.3/1.8/2.0 for the left rear. This will maximize elbow strength, while having the left flexible enough not to require very high tension to stay tight. If replacing both hub and rims, I'd look for 36 or more holes, but IME- that tends to reduce selection too much so sticking with 32h on a stiff rim may be the best option.

For rims, look for something with good rigidity, that will work with a wider tire (probably the best improvement). You also want a rim rated for fairly high spoke tension because heavier loads increase rim deflection at the bottom. If possible, build to the higher end of the working tension range, something like 120-140kg or more on the right.

As i said a wider tire will definitely make a big difference.

The other thing you can do if he has a steel frame, is to increase rear triangle width to 135mm, and add a 5mm spacer on the left to reduce the amount of asymmetry (dish).

That's all that you can do, but the rider is part of the equation. IME rider habits have as much to do with wheel issues as rider weight or build quality. BITD I rode with a ballerina who would destroy wheels routinely, and a 240# or so who rode like a ballerina and could make lightly built wheels last forever. Learning to stand and use legs as suspension to help the bike over bumps, not overly rocking the bike side to side while climbing and/or pushing overly high gears will help this rider get more life out of any pair of wheels.

Andrew R Stewart 

Agree with Bill. The rim doesn't have any bearing of the hub (except for spoke count). So if the hub/axle is in good shape there's no reason why a beefier rim couldn't be built up on it. But before I'd suggest that I'd want to know more. If the hub is a freewheel one then the asymmetrical bearing position and resulting axle bending potential (more rider weight = more possibility) is one long term concern I'd think about. Parallel to this is that most freewheel hubs, these days, are made of fairly low grade materials so bearing wear over the miles is another concern. Next up is the spoke count. Lots of bikes come with 32 hole wheels, not 36. More spokes mean each spoke does less work and when (not if) the next spoke breaks the ability to retrue the wheel is greater with more spokes.

The cost of a new rim, spokes and labor isn't a small amount and it would be a shame if the "new" wheel needed replacement sooner then later due to hub issues. At the weight of the rider he will continue to have spoke and rim concerns, it's not like there is a black and white line of everything is fine and 1 pound more weight or 4 spokes less and all goes to pot. The goal is to extend the period between the problems best possible.

A cassette hub, 36 quality spokes and a stout rim built by a competent guy who can be revisited as need is the best path, IMO. Andy.

Bill Kapaun

The only Jamis Boss 7 speed I found was a 2011 on bikepedia.com
2011 Jamis Boss 7-Speed - BikePedia

It states it's a 36 spoke wheel w/ ALEX X303 rim, 26X 2.125" tire.
It's an aluminum frame with DO spacing unspecified.
There's really no reason new DB spokes PROPERLY TENSIONED shouldn't work.

CACycling

+1

fietsbob

Phil wood Makes a very good Freewheel HUB.. I Used a 48 spoke hub of theirs for my Loaded Touring Rig..

they also would sell 36 hole of course .. The Axle is very strong .. the vulnerability of low end Freewheel hubs is they just have a 10mm threaded Axle
and leverage on the drive end because it sticks out past the Hub end bearing Quite a ways.

Phil makes their parts in California, in their own shop. , so not cheap, but they will provide lifetime service, they can replace all bearings , and such.. if ever needed

aaronmichael

Thank you for the quick responses. A bit more information I should have included in the original post: He's riding with a 26x2.125 cruiser tire, the current rim is roughly 1.25 inches wide, 36 hole spoke count. The rim does not have any brand markings on it.

aaronmichael

Also was going to mention that this time around, the spoke broke right at the elbow, as I think the others have.

fietsbob

You need to speak of the axle length and the frame width the wheel goes into.

spokes break at the elbow from metal flexing Fatigue. poor tension maintenance.

+ what is Likely a Wheel entirely assembled from parts chosen for the Lowest Cost.

Built & tensioned in a mass Production factory Wheel Building Machine.

Al1943

If the rim is straight enough rebuild it with DT Swiss Alpine spokes, 2.3-2.0-2.0 on the drive side and Alpine spokes, 2.3-1.8-2.0 on the non-drive side (with plenty of tension as FB said in post #3 ).

Dan Burkhart 

Not unusual as many bike makers are using unbranded rims and hubs from Taiwanese suppliers. Not saying it's a bad thing, I build with some unbranded rims that are very well made, rounder than certain brand name rims and better finishing at the seams.
Your case is an issue either with poorly built wheels, or a rider that rides heavy. I sold new bikes in my shop that had issues like that, one brand in particular. Got so that truing and tensioning of the wheels was part of the assembly process which made assembly more labor intensive than it should have been for mid level bikes, but it saved costly repairs down the road.

BCRider

If he bought a new bike that uses a 7 speed freewheel drive system then it says to me that it's a less costly bottom range bike. Likely he's looking for CHEAP reliability. So this advice is likely going to be the least costly and have the most likely chance of success at a lower cost.

The problem is that having ridden the new bike long enough to break some spokes already it means that the others are now well on their way to breaking as well. So it does little good now to replace the broken ones even if you went on to add tension to the spokes to better support the wheel. The damage is done.

What may happen with the new spokes is that the nipples may start to deform or even pull through the cheap rim. If that occurs then it may call for putting a new double wall rim and spokes onto the hubs.

If it were a wheelset with a higher end gearing setup I'd suggest just buying new heavier duty wheels and tension them correctly. But in this case I doubt you can locate a 7 speed freewheel hub wheel set that has a higher end rim. At least not without going to something like the Phil Wood hub wheels which could cost well more than the cost of the bike. So you and he are stuck with rebuilding the existing hubs into a wheel which will work for him.

FastJake

I can't believe the freewheel hub hasn't bent or broken an axle yet. I've bent axles on those before and I weigh 140 lbs but I was beating on them pretty hard. As a response to feitsbob who brings up Phil Wood hubs constantly, a Phil hub is probably worth more than the entire bike and would be a huge waste of money in this case.

I'd have the wheel rebuilt with a cheap 7-speed Shimano cassette hub (easily located for <$20 used), 36 double butted spokes, and either re-use the rim or find a heavier one. Have it built by a competent wheel builder and it should hold up just fine.

Drew Eckhardt 

It's a build quality problem, not materials.

Spokes fail due to fatigue with the number of cycles survived dependent on magnitude of variation (about 60% of rider weight in the rear wheel as they pass the bottom of the wheel, which is more at 275-300 pounds than with smaller riders) and average stress.

Average stress is high in machine-built wheels because parts of the elbows are not taken past their elastic limit during the forming process, and it's less expensive to deal with occasional warranty returns than to buy a Holland Mechanics stress relieving machine or pay for hand labor.

All of the spokes see approximately the same conditions and fail at about the same time like popcorn kernels - a few, many, then the stragglers.

You could start with a $25 QBP wheel, bring it up to high uniform tension (105kgf drive side is OK for most rims), stress relieve by over-stressing the spokes, and probably be OK. You can squeeze near parallel spokes together with your hands (leather gloves make that more comfortable) or twist the crossings about each other using something softer like an old left crank, plastic screw-driver handle, or brass drift (my favorite).

Stress-relieve starting with quality butted spokes and they will both be OK and not unscrew as the non-drive-side spokes go slack passing the bottom of the wheel.

Other issues you risk are broken axles (which Shimano brand freehub hubs will eliminate) and bent rims (deeper double walled rims will be more durable).

Once paying or charging for wheel building ($40-$70) with new butted spokes ($32-$36) I'd add a budget priced new double-walled rim ($30) and Shimano brand hub ($30) at the same time to virtually rule out a $130-$170 second try to get it right.

FB's comments on specifics are good.

Dan Burkhart 

A Phil hub would be worth more than the rest of the bike. Curtis Odom is also making freewheel hubs with a strong axle, probably more dosh than the Phil hub, but prettier. You could build a new wheel with a freehub type hub for far less.

davidad

Best advice so far.
I have built wheels for a few heavy weights and find that 36 double butted spokes are the way to go. The biggest guy was 275 and wanted a set for touring. No complaints yet.

nfmisso

I am a big guy (~350lbs now) and build my own wheels. I am cheap - I do not mind spending money for results, but not for a brand name. I commute by bike, I cannot afford to have bike issues.

My favorite hubs are Wheelmaster 40H "tandem" hubs, the rear is 135mm OLD, the front 100mm, cartridge bearings. The rear comes completely apart with a 5mm hex key - like Phil Wood. The front hub is around $30- and the rear under $40- from Niagara and other suppliers.

Spokes: so far no problem with Wheelsmith SS14, even on our tandem.

Rims: Velocity. For 559 Aeroheat, for 622 Dyad.

For my Trek 620 build I am going with 36/40 Velocity hubs (130mm OLD), Wheelsmith DB14 spokes, Velocity 36H Aero rim on front (lots less expensive than a 36H Dyad, which for some reason is considerably more than a 40H or 48H Dyad), 40H Dyad on the back.

For piece of mind, I am considering a new set of wheels for our tandem: 48H Wheelmaster hubs - about $10 each more per, DB14 spokes and Velocity NoBS 40H rims (within a couple dollars of a 40H Dyad at Niagara).

FBinNY 

I'm not surprised. As a rule it isn't rider weight that breaks axles, it's the constant flexing do to chain load. So stronger riders are more likely to break axles than heavier riders who aren't as strong. Terrain is also a factor because climbing usually involves higher chain loads.

bigfred 

This is an economical bike with a what appears to be a 36h Alex rim.

Simply replacing ALL the spokes with a reputable brand (DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith) 14ga straight and paying particular attention to attaining reasonably high and equal tension should probably fix the issue. If you or anyone else at the shop considers themselves a wheelbuilder but is unsure of building for clydes, aim for +/-5% with regards to tension variation.

Andrew R Stewart 

Before I would suggest relacing the old rim I'd want to check out it's condition w/out and spoke tension. If the rim were still pretty round and flat ONLY then would I consider reusing it. Andy.

CliffordK

Don't fault the guy for not buying the bike from you. He can crawl back to your shop with his head hung low, and you have no warranty or liability in this case. And still get to charge him for service.

Is he careful with the bike and avoid big bumps?

Just about every MTB I see with unknown history, 7 speed freewheel, and bolt on axles has a bent axle.

I assume the solid axles are made of much inferior material to the generally chrome-molly QR axles. However, one of the apparent benefits of the freehub design is to move the cones outward and thus give more support to the axle.

Or, does Walmart just sell bikes with pre-bent axles?

I wonder if the rider will choke if you come up with a plan for a $500 wheel to go on his $300 bicycle?

I agree that if you wish to do the bare minimum, try rebuilding the existing wheel with new name-brand spokes (heavier gauge as mentioned?). But the upgrade to a cheaper 7 spd freehub & cassette would likely be worth the added expense considering the customer is already paying for the wheel to be rebuilt.

Ideally you would find 48 spoke tandem hub (with 135mm spacing) and a heavy duty rim.

Unfortunately it is one of the things... add a little here, a little there, and expenses add up.

Here is a 40h hub with 135mm spacing for $36
Wheel Master Tandem Rear Hub - 40H, QR, 9-Speed Cassette, Silver

And a 48h hub for $100
Mountain Bike 135mm QR Rear Disc Hub 48H Black | eBay

Presumably you can also get discount prices from Shimano on the HF08 hub that can be spaced as needed for the frame.

nfmisso

Here is the 48H version:
HUB RR WM MT1110 QR SF 9sCAS 48x135 SB SL

I have a Shimano HF08, and several Wheelmaster 40H Tandem hubs - I like the design of the Wheelmaster.

CliffordK

Thanks, I had looked for that one, and it never showed up. Perhaps too many abbreviations in the title:

HUB RR WM MT1110 QR SF 9sCAS 48x135 SB SL

They do also need more options. 145mm, 11 spd, etc, without breaking the bank.

I was thinking of the Velocity Dyad, but I think it is only in the 700c-48h version.

Perhaps Sun Rynolite Rim - 26 x 2.00 - 48H Silver

So, with the spokes, you're around $100 in parts, plus labor. Not too bad.

fietsbob

Shimanos tandem hubs are 48 spoke too.. & obviously make sourcing spare cassette drivers and such service spares, easier, down the road.