My stoker likes the new Topolino wheels
01-08-12, 06:53 PM
#26
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Excellent! We're in the final stages of specing and ordering either a Calfee or Peketa tandem and was trying to decide on wheels. Neither bike would have any gold or yellow on them (it most likely will be a black frame) so I preferred black only for spokes and wheel. Aside from color are there any other diferences in the two wheels? I didn't see anything in on specifications page.
I would suggest a call to Topolino, they will be able to explain the difference. The True Black are the newer design.
01-08-12, 07:17 PM
#27
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01-08-12, 09:00 PM
#28
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Of course you are right. The heavier bike (or heavier wheels) cannot possibly climb faster for the same power applied to the rubber contact patch. It is precisely those "other variables" you mention that undoubtedly swamped the impact of the reduced weight in our "N of 1" trial, (and happened by chance to favour the old bike on that one run.) That was really my point. (I didn't want to elaborate the first time so as not to hijack the thread.) If we did an infinite number of trials now that we've had both bikes long enough to get used to both of them, with proper control of all those other variables, the average difference in climbing time I'm sure would approach the theoretical value predicted by t = mgh/P, plus or minus some mysterious "transmission efficiency fudge factor" that we always invoke to explain why tandems climb slower. 
We were pleased to verify that Newton was right: taking 7 pounds off a combined crew-and-vehicle weight of 300 lb or so did not make us lighter than air: as always, it's the engines, not the bike.
OP, good point about the "sprungness" you feel in your Topolinos. Anything that reduces road-whack to the stoker especially has got to make you faster over the long haul. The poor souls can really suffer for the team back there.
We were pleased to verify that Newton was right: taking 7 pounds off a combined crew-and-vehicle weight of 300 lb or so did not make us lighter than air: as always, it's the engines, not the bike.
OP, good point about the "sprungness" you feel in your Topolinos. Anything that reduces road-whack to the stoker especially has got to make you faster over the long haul. The poor souls can really suffer for the team back there.
We as cyclists and humans tend to attach ourselves to objectively measured criteria like weight and not adequately consider the "other factors" that may be present. Often these other factors for one reason or another are not easily measured. Decades ago the brightest minds in cycling were drilling out chain rings to save weight and not considering areodymanics at all. Now we still like the clean measurable weight but also try to measure areo effects. Just because a factor is not easily quantified and measured does not mean it fails to effect speed.
You have measured data on a climb and the old steel bike is faster. Why should we assume that the new bike will eventually exceed it in speed by the easily calculated effect of less weight when the bikes are different in so many ways? Is the fit position the same? Do the frames flex the same? Are the tires the same and run at the same pressure? Are the crank lengths the same? It is interesting that any placebo effect would tend to make the new bike faster and you still managed to go faster with the old bike.
There are a lot of possible factors and weight is only one. Give it some time and retest after you get used to the new bike. Maybe with some thought and logic you can find a factor that is helping the old bike, like crank length, that is transferable to the new bike.
In the mean time I would enjoy the new bike and hang on to that old bike. If it works for you then it works.
Wayne
01-08-12, 10:28 PM
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It's the American way. I lightened my wallet by buying a new, lighter, CF single. Since I'm 200 lbs I can't notice the weight difference (4-5 lbs) climbing except when I'm standing. Seems the lighter bike takes less out of me when I'm working the bike side-to-side. I'm pleased I've discovered this rationale which will justify a CF tandem purchase when I retire
01-09-12, 09:09 AM
#30
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In making my wheel selection I called the wheel manufacturer and asked them why I should buy their wheels. The tech guy at Topolono provided me with outstanding product knowledge and convinced me to buy their wheels. I absolutely do not regret the purchase and at this time we are completely happy with the decision.
01-09-12, 09:18 AM
#31
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It's the American way. I lightened my wallet by buying a new, lighter, CF single. Since I'm 200 lbs I can't notice the weight difference (4-5 lbs) climbing except when I'm standing. Seems the lighter bike takes less out of me when I'm working the bike side-to-side. I'm pleased I've discovered this rationale which will justify a CF tandem purchase when I retire
That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.
01-09-12, 10:05 AM
#32
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I'm all for saving weight, but the Topolinos are an expensive way to do it. At a $12/gm, you would need to invest $27,000 to achieve the 5 pound weight saving you got on your new bike.
That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.
That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.
Wayne
01-09-12, 12:01 PM
#33
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I'm all for saving weight, but the Topolinos are an expensive way to do it. At a $12/gm, you would need to invest $27,000 to achieve the 5 pound weight saving you got on your new bike.
That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.
That said, there may be other differences with these wheels, and so long a DubT is happy with his choice more power to him.
The weight savings is very nice but the ride quality is absolutely incredible, when my stoker tells me in the first 2 miles after installing the new wheels (we had Bontragers) that the ride is much better and she likes the ride then for me it is money well spent. There is no dollar value thay I can put on keeping her happy. Back in our motorcycle riding days there was a saying that went something like this, if momma is happy then everybody is happy. She is happy so I am totally thrilled!
01-09-12, 12:29 PM
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01-09-12, 05:39 PM
#35
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Please tell me how you arrived at your number. I just looked at the Tandem East website and he has tandem wheels listed at $450, $699, $899, $999 and $1250 for the Topolino's.
The weight savings is very nice but the ride quality is absolutely incredible, when my stoker tells me in the first 2 miles after installing the new wheels (we had Bontragers) that the ride is much better and she likes the ride then for me it is money well spent. There is no dollar value thay I can put on keeping her happy. Back in our motorcycle riding days there was a saying that went something like this, if momma is happy then everybody is happy. She is happy so I am totally thrilled!
The weight savings is very nice but the ride quality is absolutely incredible, when my stoker tells me in the first 2 miles after installing the new wheels (we had Bontragers) that the ride is much better and she likes the ride then for me it is money well spent. There is no dollar value thay I can put on keeping her happy. Back in our motorcycle riding days there was a saying that went something like this, if momma is happy then everybody is happy. She is happy so I am totally thrilled!
I certainly agree a happy and motivated stoker is priceless!
I wonder though - are you saying that the wheels actually provide a noticeable suspension? How much suspension travel do you believe there is due to the wheel compressing?
I know that some wheels are more flexible than others but shouldn't the difference in two high grade wheels be lost in the noise compared to the inflated tires. That is what inflatable tires were invented for after all.
Wayne
01-09-12, 05:53 PM
#36
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When I bought the wheels from Tandems East the price for the Carbon Core and the True Black were the same, so for my situation your equation does not apply.
Wayne
01-09-12, 05:56 PM
#37
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I certainly agree a happy and motivated stoker is priceless!
I wonder though - are you saying that the wheels actually provide a noticeable suspension? How much suspension travel do you believe there is due to the wheel compressing?
I know that some wheels are more flexible than others but shouldn't the difference in two high grade wheels be lost in the noise compared to the inflated tires. That is what inflatable tires were invented for after all.
Wayne
I wonder though - are you saying that the wheels actually provide a noticeable suspension? How much suspension travel do you believe there is due to the wheel compressing?
I know that some wheels are more flexible than others but shouldn't the difference in two high grade wheels be lost in the noise compared to the inflated tires. That is what inflatable tires were invented for after all.
Wayne
Wayne in Illinois
Last edited by DubT; 01-09-12 at 05:59 PM.
01-09-12, 08:09 PM
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Wayne, you'd have to ride them. With Topolinos what you are really getting (besides a lighter wheel) is premium ride quality. I suppose it's the carbon/kevlar-through-the-axle spokes that provide the superior ride. I don't really know but that's really where they are different from other wheels. I've ridden/raced lots of high end wheels across the US four times and haven't come across another wheelset that exceeds the ride quality of the Topolinos. They really are premium wheels.
01-10-12, 10:59 AM
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Wayne, you'd have to ride them. With Topolinos what you are really getting (besides a lighter wheel) is premium ride quality. I suppose it's the carbon/kevlar-through-the-axle spokes that provide the superior ride. I don't really know but that's really where they are different from other wheels. I've ridden/raced lots of high end wheels across the US four times and haven't come across another wheelset that exceeds the ride quality of the Topolinos. They really are premium wheels.
Wayne
01-10-12, 11:46 AM
#40
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I don't know for sure exactly what causes the improved ride quality but the proof is in the pudding, test a pair on your bike, I am confident that you will be able to feel a significant improvement in the ride.
Wayne in Illinois
03-02-12, 06:44 PM
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We pulled the trigger on a set of Topolino wheels last week, they arrived on Monday and i mounted the tires and installed them on the bike that evening.
The total weight of the new wheels with rim tape installed (that is the way I received them) is 698 grams front and 900 grams rear. Total weight with tires, tubes, cassette, computer magnets and quick release skewers is 2567 grams. The Bontragers weighed 3333 grams similarly equipped. I bought the wheels from Mel at Tandems East. They are the new True Black ATR 3.0 tandem wheels.
The bike now weighs 28.08 pounds with two computers and a heart rate monitor installed.
We took it for a 33 mile ride this morning and at about the 4 mile mark I asked my stoker (wife, Chris) if she noticed any difference in the bike. She said that she was getting ready to say something, she said that if felt lighter. We both agreed that the bike feels, lighter, livelier, SMOOTHER, more comfortable and more responsive. It was very comfortable to begin with. (the bike is a 2010 Calfee Tetra).
It climbs even better, there is a steep little hill just after a river bridge that we went up faster than we have ever gone.
So bottom line we like the wheels a whole lot!
Wayne
The total weight of the new wheels with rim tape installed (that is the way I received them) is 698 grams front and 900 grams rear. Total weight with tires, tubes, cassette, computer magnets and quick release skewers is 2567 grams. The Bontragers weighed 3333 grams similarly equipped. I bought the wheels from Mel at Tandems East. They are the new True Black ATR 3.0 tandem wheels.
The bike now weighs 28.08 pounds with two computers and a heart rate monitor installed.
We took it for a 33 mile ride this morning and at about the 4 mile mark I asked my stoker (wife, Chris) if she noticed any difference in the bike. She said that she was getting ready to say something, she said that if felt lighter. We both agreed that the bike feels, lighter, livelier, SMOOTHER, more comfortable and more responsive. It was very comfortable to begin with. (the bike is a 2010 Calfee Tetra).
It climbs even better, there is a steep little hill just after a river bridge that we went up faster than we have ever gone.
So bottom line we like the wheels a whole lot!
Wayne
03-03-12, 09:11 AM
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Put the 23's on the Topolinos and see how they ride!
We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.
Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.
We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.
Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.
03-03-12, 10:04 AM
#43
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Put the 23's on the Topolinos and see how they ride!
We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.
Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.
We compared the Topolinos to our Bontragers using the exact same tires, same pressure, same bike over the same course. We were specifically looking for relief from the hits at the expansion cracks. There was no significant ride difference between the wheels.
Real world testing with no difference in the pudding.
03-03-12, 10:15 AM
#44
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Would 1800 miles have the new worn off? We would not want to back to our Bontragers. FOR US the Topolino wheels provide a ride that is significantly better than the Bontragers. We ran 25mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires on both sets of wheels at 120 psi.
Wayne in Illinois
Wayne in Illinois
03-03-12, 11:20 AM
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Wayne in Texas
03-03-12, 11:42 AM
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Wayne in Illinois
03-03-12, 12:06 PM
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10-23-12, 11:45 AM
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I did and ~2000 miles later, our initial opinion is the same. Outstanding set of wheels!
BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes
BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes
10-23-12, 12:12 PM
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There are some comparisons of posters in this thread of Topolino wheels with the Spinergy wheels on the thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post14832360
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post14832360
10-24-12, 08:48 AM
#50
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I did and ~2000 miles later, our initial opinion is the same. Outstanding set of wheels!
BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes
BTW, are Bontrager wheels noted for falling apart? We had a front hub crack on our Trek T2000 which we keep in the UK, and now I've had front rim crack on my solo 2004 Trek 2300. I sold our boat because it was getting too expensive to run and we weren't using it much, but now I'm wondering if I should have kept the boat and sold the bikes
