SW84

When I took driver's ed in 1971 I was taught to drive defensibly. Now that I'm back to riding a bike 50+ years later, I ride defensibly. I use the crosswalk if there is one. If there isn't one I stay as far right as I can get, as long as it's paved. If there's no bike lane, then it's the sidewalk for me. I guess I'm a coward when it comes to competing with very heavy things that move fast, and are driven by idiots.

Btw I'm enjoying your thread Mr. B.

Iride01 

If you move to the right, use a sidewalk or otherwise try to stay out of the way, I'm not sure that's being defensive. If so, then why not do the same when you are in your car?

But it's a choice. And in some places maybe a valid and sensible choice. But it's not for my conditions I ride in here. I can be defensive and ride in the middle of my lane for times it's needed.

njkayaker

Seems like any action the cyclist can take to keep safe is included.

https://www.progressive.com/answers/...nsive-driving/

If there's an oncoming car crossing into your lane, wouldn't you consider moving to the right even if you are driving?

There's no requirement that the defensive actions you'd take on a bicycle have to be the same as the ones you'd take in a car.

mcours2006

VC has its time and place, I agree. But I have to say that riding on a 2x2 lane busy road, with a limit of probably 50-60 kph, and taking the middle of the lane for any length of time is extremely stressful for me. I've done it. I've hated every minute of it, and invariably I push harder on the pedal to get through the section as fast as I can, foolishly thinking that riding at 35 kph as opposed to a leisurely 27 kph would make any difference to motorist zipping by me. Unless I am riding with a large group, I will avoid this situation by taking an alternative, but usually longer, way around it.

mcours2006

A 1-km stretch of road on my commute is just as I described. Going to work, it's slightly uphill, perhaps 1% grade, semi-dark, lots of traffic., and certain times of the year the sun is right in front of me. I don't bother going on the road. I'll just stay on the sidewalk and ride leisurely till I turn off onto a park trail. Coming home, however, I will take the road--there's light which has a pedestrian crossing, and you get about a 35-second green light, which I treat like a 35-second head start on traffic. So I take the lane on the road, and with the 1% downhill, I am usually able to get through the 1-km section before traffic catches up to me.

We all have to do whatever we need to do to ensure our own safety. You cannot trust your safety to drivers.

jon c. 

I agree with that. I try to avoid the roads where it's necessary to take the lane with higher speed traffic. But I usually take the lane through intersections, moving back to the right once it is safe and prudent to do so. Which is the subject of this thread.

Iride01 

njkayaker I think we agree on what the definition of defensive driving is.

And this you posted seems to sum it up fairly well.
​​​​​​​I ride my bike defensively. Not timidly.

spclark 

As do I. Seems like a reasonable approach to self-preservation.

Risk-aversion is a big part of situational awareness, the two go hand in hand.

njkayaker

I avoided a head-on collision with a car crossing from the opposite lane by riding off of the road. It sounds like you'd consider that as riding "timidly".

I'm not saying people should ride "timidly" but they also need to do whatever they think will keep them safe. Not whatever you happen to approve of.

If a newer rider comes across a situation that they see as overwhelming, taking an easier way is "defensive driving". Calling this "timid" is arrogant.

Iride01 

Now you are being silly!

I have cars coming the other way on a two lane road passing the car in front of them. I'm ready to leave the road if they don't get back over in time. It's a regular occurrence that happens many times when I ride on the Natchez Trace. If I wasn't planning for what to do if the car doesn't get over, I wouldn't be riding defensively. I'm even ready for the oncoming cars behind other that might pull out to pass at the last moment not seeing me.

I don't try to assume that riding conditions are the same everywhere. Many here seem to be telling the OP that he shouldn't have been in the lane at a stop light that they got to first. So they don't get any grief from you when they say we all should do the same as they believe?

Possibly I am arrogant! However it serves no purpose to call the behavior the right thing for all to do. No matter how I worded it with lengthy more caring words it would still have been arrogant to suggest that with more experience, some will find interaction with motor vehicles less troubling.

njkayaker

You are supposed to know better.

You don't know whether something is "the right thing for all to do". What is the "right thing" is going to be different for different people (based on experience and such) and the situation.

Iride01 

I don't get to state my opinion?

njkayaker

You got to state it. Nothing prevented you from that. But nothing prevents other people from commenting on it.

Iride01 

That's true.

Especially between two that want to have the last word between each other!

njkayaker

Nice change from the "damned it you do; damned if you don't" thing that some use to try to intimidate people to shut up.

Paul Barnard

Someone is trying to run up a post count.