View Poll Results: Which best describes you.
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IPS Or Standard Poll
08-26-10, 06:48 AM
#1
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IPS Or Standard Poll
Hello,
I have done a lot of forum reading here and elsewhere on Independant Pedaling vs standard tandem. I know everyone has their own opinion on this and each has pros and cons. I am leaning toward sticking with standard, but not 100% sure.
Anyway, instead of asking opinions, I am curious as to how many started on one, then later switched. So I added a poll that may help. Thanks for playing along...
Gary
I have done a lot of forum reading here and elsewhere on Independant Pedaling vs standard tandem. I know everyone has their own opinion on this and each has pros and cons. I am leaning toward sticking with standard, but not 100% sure.
Anyway, instead of asking opinions, I am curious as to how many started on one, then later switched. So I added a poll that may help. Thanks for playing along...
Gary
08-26-10, 07:01 AM
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I think you need to add at least one choice: I started on a standard tandem and never tried IPS (not that I necessarily prefer standard).
08-26-10, 07:15 AM
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My wife and I bought a daVinci (IPS/ICS) 15 months ago shortly after we took up cycling. We have essentially no experience on a standard tandem, but I'll offer my observations. Your poll is interesting BTW, but I don't see enough IPS tandems on the road to provide much of a sample size.
If you're a go-fast team I would stick with a standard configuration. I'm not suggesting that IPS is necessarily slower, but prolonged standing or sprinting out of the saddle definitely seems trickier with ICS; with ICS if the styles of the two riders are not perfectly matched (standing) it's easy for the captain and stoker to get out of sync. Now, practice would overcome some of this, but my wife and I have not practiced enough.
For many other teams IPS can be an attractive alternative. Yes, there is a slight weight penalty, but I think our daVinci (steel) is 35 lbs. bare which isn't too bad. Starting on a steep climb is much easier as long as you don't abuse the auxiliary power plant on the back seat. I've taken on a few other stokers and have two grandsons one of whom is just about old enough to stoke and the ICS makes things much easier. The ICS adds a bit of mechanical complexity, but we've had 4000 trouble-free miles - it's really no more than one more small chain and two extra freewheels.
YMMV - different strokes for different folks. I'm sure if we had purchased a Co-Mo we would be enjoying tandeming just as much. For us the benefit of a tandem is configuration-independent; we get to spend quality time together and improve our fitness at the same time. We're seeing parts of California from a completely different vantage and are so looking forward to Tucson and riding with 11,999 close friends.
If you're a go-fast team I would stick with a standard configuration. I'm not suggesting that IPS is necessarily slower, but prolonged standing or sprinting out of the saddle definitely seems trickier with ICS; with ICS if the styles of the two riders are not perfectly matched (standing) it's easy for the captain and stoker to get out of sync. Now, practice would overcome some of this, but my wife and I have not practiced enough.
For many other teams IPS can be an attractive alternative. Yes, there is a slight weight penalty, but I think our daVinci (steel) is 35 lbs. bare which isn't too bad. Starting on a steep climb is much easier as long as you don't abuse the auxiliary power plant on the back seat. I've taken on a few other stokers and have two grandsons one of whom is just about old enough to stoke and the ICS makes things much easier. The ICS adds a bit of mechanical complexity, but we've had 4000 trouble-free miles - it's really no more than one more small chain and two extra freewheels.
YMMV - different strokes for different folks. I'm sure if we had purchased a Co-Mo we would be enjoying tandeming just as much. For us the benefit of a tandem is configuration-independent; we get to spend quality time together and improve our fitness at the same time. We're seeing parts of California from a completely different vantage and are so looking forward to Tucson and riding with 11,999 close friends.
Last edited by rdtompki; 08-26-10 at 07:16 AM. Reason: grammar
08-26-10, 08:08 AM
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Have you ridden a few miles on both conventional and daVinci IPS tandems with a stoker? If not, that will go a lot further towards yielding a more useful answer vs. polling.
As already suggested by rdtompki, the number of folks who own IPS are miniscule compared to conventional tandems, and you'll see that rather quickly in your polling data.
However, those who have daVinci tandems with IPS are all very pleased with IPS and daVinci in general. The only reason IPS is not more pervasive is because daVinci's tandems are a boutique brand that have traditionally been rather expensive -- even for the basic models. Folks typically only find out about daVinci if they have had a chance to visit one of the 5 or so larger tandem speciality dealers that stock a daVinci, or by word of mouth. The introduction of a new, lower-cost 'production' model daVinci, i.e., the Grand Junction, has gone a long way towards expanding daVinci's market share over the past couple years which confirmed that cost WAS a barrier to many potential buyers.
So, if you really want to know if IPS is right for you... find one to ride. I know, easier said than done compared to, say, doing a poll.
As already suggested by rdtompki, the number of folks who own IPS are miniscule compared to conventional tandems, and you'll see that rather quickly in your polling data.
However, those who have daVinci tandems with IPS are all very pleased with IPS and daVinci in general. The only reason IPS is not more pervasive is because daVinci's tandems are a boutique brand that have traditionally been rather expensive -- even for the basic models. Folks typically only find out about daVinci if they have had a chance to visit one of the 5 or so larger tandem speciality dealers that stock a daVinci, or by word of mouth. The introduction of a new, lower-cost 'production' model daVinci, i.e., the Grand Junction, has gone a long way towards expanding daVinci's market share over the past couple years which confirmed that cost WAS a barrier to many potential buyers.
So, if you really want to know if IPS is right for you... find one to ride. I know, easier said than done compared to, say, doing a poll.
08-26-10, 09:16 AM
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Hey Venturous, where in WV?
We've never ridden a Da Vinci, but have ridden a number of times with people that have them.
I'd say that rdtompki's post is a pretty fair summary of what I've observed, and heard from Davinci riders.
The system offers an advantage for certain teams, most notably teams with less experienced stokers.
But there are a number of drawbacks, particularly if you're looking to go fast, such as weight, complexity, expense, difficulty climbing out of the saddle, difficulty sprinting out of the saddle.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Stoker pedals a slower cadence than the Captain, the Stoker is essentially freewheeling, like riding a bike downhill when you're not pedaling fast enough to actually engage the freehub. Thus the system allows independent coasting, but it still really doesn't address mismatched cadence preference.
So, if you're a team of two, strong, experienced cyclists, and want to ride fast, it seems there is no great benefit, and some significant draawbacks.
If going fast, climbing out of the saddle, sprinting, etc, doesn't matter to you, and the ICS accomodates your team's particular needs then it can be a reasonable choice.
We've never ridden a Da Vinci, but have ridden a number of times with people that have them.
I'd say that rdtompki's post is a pretty fair summary of what I've observed, and heard from Davinci riders.
The system offers an advantage for certain teams, most notably teams with less experienced stokers.
But there are a number of drawbacks, particularly if you're looking to go fast, such as weight, complexity, expense, difficulty climbing out of the saddle, difficulty sprinting out of the saddle.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Stoker pedals a slower cadence than the Captain, the Stoker is essentially freewheeling, like riding a bike downhill when you're not pedaling fast enough to actually engage the freehub. Thus the system allows independent coasting, but it still really doesn't address mismatched cadence preference.
So, if you're a team of two, strong, experienced cyclists, and want to ride fast, it seems there is no great benefit, and some significant draawbacks.
If going fast, climbing out of the saddle, sprinting, etc, doesn't matter to you, and the ICS accomodates your team's particular needs then it can be a reasonable choice.
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08-26-10, 09:27 AM
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Well, as a tandem newbie, I figured my impressions from any test ride would be pretty much useless because as I understand, riding a tandem, either standard or IPS requires hundred miles or more with the stroker in order to get into any real flow. So, I may feel the IPS or standard is better as a newbie, but after I gain experience, I may not feel the same. That is why I am curious if many folks change minds either way after they gain experience. Does that make any sense?
08-26-10, 09:54 AM
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Well, as a tandem newbie, I figured my impressions from any test ride would be pretty much useless because as I understand, riding a tandem, either standard or IPS requires hundred miles or more with the stroker in order to get into any real flow. So, I may feel the IPS or standard is better as a newbie, but after I gain experience, I may not feel the same. That is why I am curious if many folks change minds either way after they gain experience. Does that make any sense?
Your impressions are YOUR impressions, so they aren't useless. More over, it doesn't take hundreds of miles to get comfortable enough to form impressions as to how one tandem "feels" compared to another: it really takes just a couple miles to assimilate the tandem riding experience. The key is making sure you don't dismiss the first tandem you ride as "awful" since your first ride is the one where you climb the steepest learning curve. So, if you had access to a tandem speciality dealer with a few tandems in stock that can be made to fit well enough for a test ride, a 1/2 day spent taking a few different tandems for a spin would yield a lot of useful information about what you like or don't like. Frankly, all you're hoping to do with a 'first tandem' is to get a tandem that fits well within your target budget to allow you to learn enough to make a subsequent decision on a longer-term tandem proposition, i.e., this one's good enough, I want something better/different, or tandemming is not for us.
So, that said, in a 1/2 day session of back-to-back test rides you could just as easily determine if you liked IPS as you did the steering and 'feel' of the various different tandems on the market so long as you had a knowledgeable tandem specialist to help work you through the process.
As for 'changing your mind', as I said, your first tandem is just that: your first tandem. If you bought a Grand Junction and found that you and your stoker didn't like it you'd have two choices: have the IPS freewheels replaced with non-freewheeling cogs and voila, you now have a 'standard' tandem OR put it for sale and find something else.
The safe choice is to ask yourself: if there was no such thing as a daVinci with IPS what would you do? You'd do what 99% of most folks do. But, that said, the folks at daVinci and most owners of daVinci tandems will tell you that they really like their IPS bikes. So, your best bet is to search out daVinci owners like rdtomki and pick their brains. The poll... as constructed it will quickly seem to suggest that you stick with a conventional drivetrain.
Last edited by TandemGeek; 08-26-10 at 12:37 PM.
08-26-10, 10:14 AM
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You don't state if you are planning to ride road or mtb. I think that for offroad, ICS would be great for the stoker to time their pedals over rocks, logs, etc.
For road riding, the choice is less simple and less clear to me. Others opinions may in the end be wrong for you anyway, so I suggest you attempt some test rides.
For road riding, the choice is less simple and less clear to me. Others opinions may in the end be wrong for you anyway, so I suggest you attempt some test rides.
08-27-10, 10:02 AM
#9
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I suppose we are in the small niche within the niche of tandems. We own several tandems. We started with a beach cruiser and then jumped to a DaVinci. Love that bike. It was our primary bike for several years. We've done some loaded touring and traveled with it to Europe (its coupled). Then we decided that we NEEDED a "go-fast" bike (yeah, I know its not about the bike!). So we bought a Calfee. LOVE that bike too. It has a completely different feel. It did not take any time at all to get used to being "synched" via the timing chain.
Then we decided that we wanted to ride off-road. Here's where it got tricky. There are definitely some even bigger pros and bigger cons of having the ICS on a mtb tandem (in my opinion). The ability to have the stokers pedals in different positions when riding over waterbars and rocks CAN be a big advantage. The ability for the captain to NOT be able to put the stoker's pedals where you want them going around rocks and obstacles CAN also be a big disadvantage. All that said, we went with a traditional drivetrain on our Ventana mountain tandem. We love that bike and ride it more than any other bike that we own. Full disclosure, we ride with several other mtb tandems and two of them are on DaVincis and they both are HUGE fans.
We still really like our DaVinci and ride it primarily for loaded tours (especially with extended climbs in our nearby mountains), we actually prefer the ICS. It gives you the abilty to take turns in taking small breaks to "re-arrange" in the saddle, or out of the saddle. The gearing is has an amazingly huge range. VERY good for touring and climbing. DaVinci makes a high quality bike! One last plug for the DaVinci - it makes the PERFECT cyclocross tandem and here's why. When re-mounting the bike (while moving), the captain throws his leg over and starts pedaling, then the stoker can jump on the back and not have to chase the pedals... pretty cool!
I realize that we are outside the norm in that we have more than one tandem. I don't think I've met any unhappy DaVinci owners.
Then we decided that we wanted to ride off-road. Here's where it got tricky. There are definitely some even bigger pros and bigger cons of having the ICS on a mtb tandem (in my opinion). The ability to have the stokers pedals in different positions when riding over waterbars and rocks CAN be a big advantage. The ability for the captain to NOT be able to put the stoker's pedals where you want them going around rocks and obstacles CAN also be a big disadvantage. All that said, we went with a traditional drivetrain on our Ventana mountain tandem. We love that bike and ride it more than any other bike that we own. Full disclosure, we ride with several other mtb tandems and two of them are on DaVincis and they both are HUGE fans.
We still really like our DaVinci and ride it primarily for loaded tours (especially with extended climbs in our nearby mountains), we actually prefer the ICS. It gives you the abilty to take turns in taking small breaks to "re-arrange" in the saddle, or out of the saddle. The gearing is has an amazingly huge range. VERY good for touring and climbing. DaVinci makes a high quality bike! One last plug for the DaVinci - it makes the PERFECT cyclocross tandem and here's why. When re-mounting the bike (while moving), the captain throws his leg over and starts pedaling, then the stoker can jump on the back and not have to chase the pedals... pretty cool!
I realize that we are outside the norm in that we have more than one tandem. I don't think I've met any unhappy DaVinci owners.
08-27-10, 10:52 AM
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We bought the daVinci with zero tandem experience after test riding Santana, Co-Mo and daVinci. There was not much difference in price for similarly equipped rides. Since we were just getting back into cycling and being both "seniors" the wide gearing was attractive; we're in NorCal and flat riding would be extremely limiting. Also, I'm a bit of a geek and the unusual nature of the dV was interesting. So, the ICS was not the deciding factor, but we do like it very much. Starting on what for us is a steep hill (10+ %) is much easier with ICS, but I don't dawdle in getting on the pedals; as seniors we do sometimes have to stop on longer climbs.
Getting in sync is so automatic that when I try to experiment with OOP my wife can't consistently get there she is so programmed to be in sync. I can spin my wife out, but with a 60-11 top gear I just keep things under 95 rpm and all is good. I'm not good much over 100 anyway.
I do prefer the Campy shifters to my Shimano single-bike setup, but I didn't know that when I bought the dV. The front shifting is not indexed, but I'd rather have the four chainrings than indexed shifting. In my next life I might consider bar ends with a friction front shifter and indexed rear. Since we're not a strong team I won't hesitate to go 10-spd once dV has the modified RD available.
Getting in sync is so automatic that when I try to experiment with OOP my wife can't consistently get there she is so programmed to be in sync. I can spin my wife out, but with a 60-11 top gear I just keep things under 95 rpm and all is good. I'm not good much over 100 anyway.
I do prefer the Campy shifters to my Shimano single-bike setup, but I didn't know that when I bought the dV. The front shifting is not indexed, but I'd rather have the four chainrings than indexed shifting. In my next life I might consider bar ends with a friction front shifter and indexed rear. Since we're not a strong team I won't hesitate to go 10-spd once dV has the modified RD available.
08-28-10, 07:04 AM
#11
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I have a very long post about my experiences with da Vinci Tandems on my blog here: https://www.eurastus.com/2007/08/da-vinci-tandems.html. Give it a read if you've got some time to spend researching. It's not all about the ICS, as there are other aspects of the bike that are worth discussion, but ICS is what makes da Vinci unique.
08-28-10, 09:33 PM
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daVinci folks buiild a great tandem.
Test rode a prototype about 15+ years ago and was really impressed with the super-smooth front der. shifting over 4 'cogs' and workmanship on the frame!
However, being very long time OOPers we did not see any advantage for us with ICS.
Just our input . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Test rode a prototype about 15+ years ago and was really impressed with the super-smooth front der. shifting over 4 'cogs' and workmanship on the frame!
However, being very long time OOPers we did not see any advantage for us with ICS.
Just our input . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
08-28-10, 10:21 PM
#13
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IPS yes!
Seeing that our tandem experience is mainly with recumbent tandems I'm not sure if they are of any value to most tandemists, (we laydown to climb hills) however we love the IPS on our Double Vision and wish that we had it on our Bike E tandem. We have done centuries relatively effortlessly on the DV but have struggled a bit more with the Bike E tandem. What the IPS is certainly good for is introducing newbies to recumbents as well as tandems. Often it is the first time for both. I recently gave my son's principal a ride on the DV and she was quite impressed with the comfort as well as the IPS since her husband and her ride a conventional tandem which she didn't seem to enjoy( she's in the back seat and that view is greatly expanded on a recumbent tandem). It would be neat if someone came up with a lock out for the IPS so that you could be in sync as well.
08-29-10, 03:47 PM
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My wife and I wanted an activity we could do together. Our fitness levels are much different and her concern was that I would ride ahead and she would struggle. We had sold our individual bikes a few years ago. We were ready to ride, but needed to select something. We rode both types of bikes with a LBS tandem specialist before we bought the DaVinci Grand Junction in April. It was obvious to us that the ICS was for us. We realized that riding a tandem takes a commitment from both of us to make it work. After several hundred miles riding we are very happy with our choice. We are making plans to take it to the Midwest next year and perhaps California this fall or winter. We aren't fast but we are steady riders. The ICS removed one possible obstacle and allows us to focus on riding and not the cadence. Either of us can rest at our convenience. For me, it removes one thing about being the captain. Although we still have to agree on the cadence, I don't worry if I'm pushing her too hard as she can rest when she needs to.
08-29-10, 04:04 PM
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Hindsight being 20/20 I would recommend adding a category. The category titled " I started on a standard tandem, still prefer standard" may include tandem teams of two ilk:
1. Those who have tried IPS and prefer "standard"
2. Those who haven't tried IPS, prefer "standard", but have not had an opportunity to try IPS
I suspect category 2 would be the significant majority. What's important is that we're out there riding tandems, but anyone who want to come over to the dark, IPS side is welcome.
1. Those who have tried IPS and prefer "standard"
2. Those who haven't tried IPS, prefer "standard", but have not had an opportunity to try IPS
I suspect category 2 would be the significant majority. What's important is that we're out there riding tandems, but anyone who want to come over to the dark, IPS side is welcome.
08-29-10, 05:50 PM
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I started my tandem riding as a stoker with ICS. Since then I have captained and stoked MTBs and road tandems with both types of drivetrains. I've found the ICS to be convenient for casual riding but prefer the conventional drivetrain for performance riding. We seriously considered and demoed a DaVinci before getting our Ventana.
If you're not sure which way to go it is an option to buy a conventional tandem and add IPS cranks, available through J and B Importers via your LBS. That way you're not locked into a DaVinci and you could buy a used bike.
If you're not sure which way to go it is an option to buy a conventional tandem and add IPS cranks, available through J and B Importers via your LBS. That way you're not locked into a DaVinci and you could buy a used bike.
