The biggest safety hazard that cyclists bring on themselves
01-08-15, 03:42 PM
#126
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I'm not sure it can be shown which choice is safer as foot retention is used mostly by some adult enthuasts, and no foot retention by everyone else.
01-08-15, 03:48 PM
#127
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Unless I'm mistaken, you've (mis)read my silly parody as a serious proposal.
OK, once and for all: To Whom It May Concern; Post #103 in this thread, made by me -- Badger1 -- is ... a ... PARODY (i.e. a joke; not-a-serious-proposal; something-not-to-be-taken-literally; a send-up; taking the p_ss; etc.).
OK, once and for all: To Whom It May Concern; Post #103 in this thread, made by me -- Badger1 -- is ... a ... PARODY (i.e. a joke; not-a-serious-proposal; something-not-to-be-taken-literally; a send-up; taking the p_ss; etc.).
It won't work, you're permanently branded now.
01-08-15, 04:01 PM
#128
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Ironically, a more common cause of issues than failing to disengage, is disengaging prematurely, such as when initiating sprint or steep high gear climb. This is not fun at all, and many strong riders will say that they had to find a balance between security against premature release and easy release when wanted. This is why the retention system is adjustable, and learning how to adjust it is part of the learning process.
The danger lies in primarily with the beginners. I don't see any added danger, and perhaps decreased danger once one gets used to them.
01-08-15, 04:06 PM
#129
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I raced, motoecycle racers and some bicycle riders practiced the "iron shoe" inside foot down to improve control on curves. It really didn't do any good, but seemed to help psychologically, by giving riders a sense of extra control. That practice is passe, but we all sometimes feel the need to "stabilize" ourselves with the foot down, even though it's more likely to cause a crash than to prevent one.
01-08-15, 04:15 PM
#130
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Despite the fact you're a senior member, I'm gonna take issue with your "proposal".
Seeing as you're Canadian, you're used to government controls and readily accept them either because you think government knows better or you're an idiot or just a kneejerk liberal.
Here in America, we have something called FREEDOM, which means we're free to do what we want as long as it doesn't injure others.
Here's why your 'proposal' wouldn't work, 1). Licensing, what're you gonna do, have bicycle cops riding the paths, stopping folks and demanding to see their 'license'?
2). Your 'requirements for license level 1' are just moronic, having to be accompanied by a level 3 rider, electronic governor limiting speed to 10 mph, full face helmets (on a motorcycle these are fine, but when you need to have better breathing, not so much), full fingered gloves, approved body armour? ALL RIDICULOUS REQUIREMENTS as outlined by a devout socialist from north of the border.
Then, you're gonna have to make sure the cops enforce these little laws you've outlined.
Like here in Virginia, it's illegal for anybody over the age of 15 to ride on the sidewalk (how old is someone? children don't normally carry ID), there's also size to be considered (I've been the same size since I was 14 - 6' 3-4" and 250 +/- pounds), yet I've seen adults regularly riding on walkways.
I'm a 51 year old man who's been riding my Giant 980C since '92 (WITH dropbars and toe clips) and have only had ONE accident that was my fault (the other accident occurred when this "lady" turned left in front of me and I nailed the grill on her Escalade, I was largely uninjured, but the dropouts on my bike were bent), but the requirements of your "licensing system" would penalise me for her improper driving.
Per your "licensing requirements of accident/incident free riding, do you mean ALL accidents or just the ones caused by the cyclist?
I'm just glad you're NOT in charge of, well, ANYTHING!!!
Seeing as you're Canadian, you're used to government controls and readily accept them either because you think government knows better or you're an idiot or just a kneejerk liberal.
Here in America, we have something called FREEDOM, which means we're free to do what we want as long as it doesn't injure others.
Here's why your 'proposal' wouldn't work, 1). Licensing, what're you gonna do, have bicycle cops riding the paths, stopping folks and demanding to see their 'license'?
2). Your 'requirements for license level 1' are just moronic, having to be accompanied by a level 3 rider, electronic governor limiting speed to 10 mph, full face helmets (on a motorcycle these are fine, but when you need to have better breathing, not so much), full fingered gloves, approved body armour? ALL RIDICULOUS REQUIREMENTS as outlined by a devout socialist from north of the border.
Then, you're gonna have to make sure the cops enforce these little laws you've outlined.
Like here in Virginia, it's illegal for anybody over the age of 15 to ride on the sidewalk (how old is someone? children don't normally carry ID), there's also size to be considered (I've been the same size since I was 14 - 6' 3-4" and 250 +/- pounds), yet I've seen adults regularly riding on walkways.
I'm a 51 year old man who's been riding my Giant 980C since '92 (WITH dropbars and toe clips) and have only had ONE accident that was my fault (the other accident occurred when this "lady" turned left in front of me and I nailed the grill on her Escalade, I was largely uninjured, but the dropouts on my bike were bent), but the requirements of your "licensing system" would penalise me for her improper driving.
Per your "licensing requirements of accident/incident free riding, do you mean ALL accidents or just the ones caused by the cyclist?
I'm just glad you're NOT in charge of, well, ANYTHING!!!
It does take considerable writing skill to portray sarcasm in the written word. I feel that badger1 did a good job. I, as well as others, got it immediately.
Since your 51 years walking this earth and your copious amounts of FREEDOM didn't teach anything about human interaction, then let me give you a piece of advice if you wish to stay with us here on Bike Forums. If you suspect something untoward in another's post, it is always better to try and gain further understanding by asking questions. If the answers confirm your suspicions, then attack the opinion rather than childish and ignorant comments on the authors country.
I doubt your fellow Americans (a number whom I call friends) would want you to further spread the stereotype of arrogant, ignorant, egomaniacal, violent and uneducated American people that you have so eloquently portrayed in your post. Just a taste of your own medicine there.
If this is your attitude toward the rest of the world, do your fellow Americians a favour, and stay there. The world doesn't need your particular brand of poison.
Last edited by digger; 01-08-15 at 04:20 PM.
01-08-15, 04:31 PM
#131
genec
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... on further reflection, I've come to realize the error in my thinking. The OP makes a very good point, derived from his anecdotal observations. That point is this: the carnage we are witnessing on our city sidewalks, MUPs, and streets is simply unacceptable. Cyclists' mangled bodies are strewn everywhere on any given day; our cities' EM Services are stretched to capacity; our hospitals' ERs and our morgues are at the breaking point. All this the result of inexperienced cyclists over-reaching their abilities. This creates, to my mind, a serious public policy issue -- one flowing from the recent growth of cycling.
Therefore, I should like to propose that all provinces and states institute a mandatory 'graduated' licensing system for all persons ... without exception ... who wish to ride bicycles on public path/roadways. The details need to be worked out, of course, but I think that in rough outline such a system would work something like this.
Licence Level 1: all persons (child and adult) entering the system will be granted a learner's permit. This will allow them to ride a conventional bicycle on designated off-street bike paths and MUPs only, only between the hours of 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. (local time), and only when accompanied by an adult holding a Level 3 (see below) licence. Further restrictions will preclude the use of drop-bars, both toe-clips and clipless pedals, and tires of less than 32mm width. Level 1 licensees must further have their bicycles equipped (at their expense) with an electronic governor limiting top speed to 10 mph. The data from that electronic governor will be sent to a central data collection agency. Employees there will monitor an individual's cycling habits etc. and develop a complete profile. Further, all Level 1 cyclists will be required to wear full protective gear at all times while cycling, including but not limited to a full-face helment™ and approved body armour (full-fingered gloves, knee/elbow pads etc.). While holding a Level 1 licence, the licensee shall attend a mandatory, six-month cycling safety course at an approved "Even One Incident is One Too Many Centre", under the tutelage of a qualified instructor. Successful completion of this course (evidenced by a Certificate) is a condition precedent to being permitted to graduate to Level 2.
Licence Level 2: removes the requirement (after one year of accident/incident-free cycling during which the licensee has accumulated a total number of hours t.b.d.) to be accompanied by a Level 3 adult licensee. All other restrictions remain in place.
Licence Level 3: after a further year's accident/incident-free cycling, all restrictions (including electronic governing/monitoring) are removed, save and except that no cyclist shall operate a bicycle using toe-clips, clipless pedals or any other form of 'foot-to-pedal' attachment*, and that no cyclist shall operate a bicycle without wearing an approved helment™. Level 3 licences are granted for a five-year period, and are renewable subject to the licensee's having a clean cycling record.
I fully realize that this is a rough outline only -- a modest proposal -- but I believe that it is quite feasible, and that if instituted it will dramatically reduce the number of cycling injuries and fatalities (as noted in the preamble, clearly now at unacceptable levels and constituting a drain on public resources), save the children, and end world poverty.
*Use of any form of foot retention will require a cyclist first to attend supplemental mandatory training courses, at his/her expense. Any LBS caught selling foot-retention devices to any unqualified cyclist shall be subject to penalties.
Therefore, I should like to propose that all provinces and states institute a mandatory 'graduated' licensing system for all persons ... without exception ... who wish to ride bicycles on public path/roadways. The details need to be worked out, of course, but I think that in rough outline such a system would work something like this.
Licence Level 1: all persons (child and adult) entering the system will be granted a learner's permit. This will allow them to ride a conventional bicycle on designated off-street bike paths and MUPs only, only between the hours of 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. (local time), and only when accompanied by an adult holding a Level 3 (see below) licence. Further restrictions will preclude the use of drop-bars, both toe-clips and clipless pedals, and tires of less than 32mm width. Level 1 licensees must further have their bicycles equipped (at their expense) with an electronic governor limiting top speed to 10 mph. The data from that electronic governor will be sent to a central data collection agency. Employees there will monitor an individual's cycling habits etc. and develop a complete profile. Further, all Level 1 cyclists will be required to wear full protective gear at all times while cycling, including but not limited to a full-face helment™ and approved body armour (full-fingered gloves, knee/elbow pads etc.). While holding a Level 1 licence, the licensee shall attend a mandatory, six-month cycling safety course at an approved "Even One Incident is One Too Many Centre", under the tutelage of a qualified instructor. Successful completion of this course (evidenced by a Certificate) is a condition precedent to being permitted to graduate to Level 2.
Licence Level 2: removes the requirement (after one year of accident/incident-free cycling during which the licensee has accumulated a total number of hours t.b.d.) to be accompanied by a Level 3 adult licensee. All other restrictions remain in place.
Licence Level 3: after a further year's accident/incident-free cycling, all restrictions (including electronic governing/monitoring) are removed, save and except that no cyclist shall operate a bicycle using toe-clips, clipless pedals or any other form of 'foot-to-pedal' attachment*, and that no cyclist shall operate a bicycle without wearing an approved helment™. Level 3 licences are granted for a five-year period, and are renewable subject to the licensee's having a clean cycling record.
I fully realize that this is a rough outline only -- a modest proposal -- but I believe that it is quite feasible, and that if instituted it will dramatically reduce the number of cycling injuries and fatalities (as noted in the preamble, clearly now at unacceptable levels and constituting a drain on public resources), save the children, and end world poverty.
*Use of any form of foot retention will require a cyclist first to attend supplemental mandatory training courses, at his/her expense. Any LBS caught selling foot-retention devices to any unqualified cyclist shall be subject to penalties.
Last edited by CbadRider; 01-08-15 at 08:47 PM. Reason: undefeated the word censor
01-08-15, 04:52 PM
#132
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Once while clipped in, I was screaming down the back side of a long bridge and due to an unforeseen weakness in frame dynamics my bike commenced wobbling with vigor, far too thrashingly for me to ever contemplate engaging the intricate muscle memory sequence required to clip out.
As a result, involuntarily affixed to my bike as I now was, the world switched into slo-mo and I burst through the glass wall of the mall food court, shards of sun-bright safety glass expanding slowly, gracefully, like a constellation around me as food-eating folks leap to the sides like extras in a movie.
When my wheels hit the ground everything went into double time motion. I skidded on the slick floor and fishtailed a leather craft kiosk and then a remote controlled helicopter kiosk, both flying like vengeance down the side aisles, people like bowling pins too fat to get out of the way of them and as I straightened out I was already on the escalator.
Oh! People diving over the sides! Helium balloons escaping to the ceiling - why? I don't know. A security guard. Flying leap at me. Too late! Tackled the woman in the sensible shoes on the other side of me. Maybe she was a nun.
But eventually I learned how to use my cleats.
As a result, involuntarily affixed to my bike as I now was, the world switched into slo-mo and I burst through the glass wall of the mall food court, shards of sun-bright safety glass expanding slowly, gracefully, like a constellation around me as food-eating folks leap to the sides like extras in a movie.
When my wheels hit the ground everything went into double time motion. I skidded on the slick floor and fishtailed a leather craft kiosk and then a remote controlled helicopter kiosk, both flying like vengeance down the side aisles, people like bowling pins too fat to get out of the way of them and as I straightened out I was already on the escalator.
Oh! People diving over the sides! Helium balloons escaping to the ceiling - why? I don't know. A security guard. Flying leap at me. Too late! Tackled the woman in the sensible shoes on the other side of me. Maybe she was a nun.
But eventually I learned how to use my cleats.
Last edited by Zapdaba; 01-08-15 at 05:16 PM.
01-08-15, 05:18 PM
#133
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Forgive me, it's true, sarcasm is very difficult to convey in the written word, that, and I'm used to having to deal with folks that have no sense of humour. Sarcasm exception being what genec wrote as seen here, below.
Again, I ask forgiveness from others because I'm a hammerhead.
Again, I ask forgiveness from others because I'm a hammerhead.
01-08-15, 05:24 PM
#134
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Unless I'm mistaken, you've (mis)read my silly parody as a serious proposal.
OK, once and for all: To Whom It May Concern; Post #103 in this thread, made by me -- Badger1 -- is ... a ... PARODY (i.e. a joke; not-a-serious-proposal; something-not-to-be-taken-literally; a send-up; taking the p_ss; etc.).
By the way, calling someone an "idiot" on here is not really very nice, sweetie.
OK, once and for all: To Whom It May Concern; Post #103 in this thread, made by me -- Badger1 -- is ... a ... PARODY (i.e. a joke; not-a-serious-proposal; something-not-to-be-taken-literally; a send-up; taking the p_ss; etc.).
By the way, calling someone an "idiot" on here is not really very nice, sweetie.
Agreed, calling someone an idiot isn't very nice, but I would've thought being called a liberal to be worse, lol
01-08-15, 05:44 PM
#135
Senior Member
I tried clipless pedals for a while about 16 or 17 years ago and didn't like them because they hurt my feet. Maybe it was an adjustment issue or maybe I had the wrong brand for me, or something, but it seemed that the area that supported my feet was too narrow. I do have sort of short and wide feet; seems appropriate somehow. So, I went back to clips and straps and there I stay. I can't recall ever having fallen due to clips and straps, but I did fail to unclip once or twice when I was trying the clipless. Just used to the clips, I guess. Anyway, no big deal.
I couple years ago, my younger sister talked me into riding across Iowa with about 10,000 of our closest friends. On the night before the first ride we imbibed, as many participants did. She failed her track stand test (and I don't understand how someone can track stand with a cassette or freewheel hub anyway) and tumbled. Over the next week, she didn't repeat, but I probably saw one or two riders a day fall when slowing down to stop at Mr. Pork Chop. I can understand how one might get distracted in gustatory anticipation.
I couple years ago, my younger sister talked me into riding across Iowa with about 10,000 of our closest friends. On the night before the first ride we imbibed, as many participants did. She failed her track stand test (and I don't understand how someone can track stand with a cassette or freewheel hub anyway) and tumbled. Over the next week, she didn't repeat, but I probably saw one or two riders a day fall when slowing down to stop at Mr. Pork Chop. I can understand how one might get distracted in gustatory anticipation.
01-08-15, 06:00 PM
#136
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As it happens, I find your second sentence quite funny (meant as a compliment!) -- in the Canadian context, I'd rather be called an idiot than a Liberal. I do get the U.S. context, btw.
01-08-15, 06:05 PM
#137
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So after attending the supplemental mandatory training course... hereafter to be known as Special High Intensity Training... does one then get a special **** mark on their license? Otherwise the flaw I see is that LBSs will refuse to sell foot retention devices and **** trained cyclists will have to resort to the use of duck tape, eh?
P.S. Up here, it's 'duct tape' -- the handyman's friend.
PP.S. I don't think there's any possibility with this of infringing the Big S's patents/copyrights, do you? If there is, it's your idea, not mine.
Last edited by CbadRider; 01-08-15 at 08:48 PM. Reason: edited quoted post
01-08-15, 08:48 PM
#138
genec
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I like the title/acronym! I think we should pitch the idea to Rapha as a franchise possibility. Whatya think? If we can persuade the authorities to adopt my ideas for graduated licensing, the marketing possibilities are endless.
P.S. Up here, it's 'duct tape' -- the handyman's friend.
PP.S. I don't think there's any possibility with this of infringing the Big S's patents/copyrights, do you? If there is, it's your idea, not mine.
P.S. Up here, it's 'duct tape' -- the handyman's friend.
PP.S. I don't think there's any possibility with this of infringing the Big S's patents/copyrights, do you? If there is, it's your idea, not mine.
Duct Tape, Packaging Tape, Shelf Liner, Weatherization | Duck® Brand
Have a good day.
01-08-15, 09:45 PM
#139
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01-11-15, 04:17 PM
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"The biggest"
So the fatality rate is higher than encounters with inattentive drivers, drunk drivers, and even mechanical failure and other crash situations?
Wild!
I mean that's not what the data you're linking to said but... I mean, wow!
So the fatality rate is higher than encounters with inattentive drivers, drunk drivers, and even mechanical failure and other crash situations?
Wild!
I mean that's not what the data you're linking to said but... I mean, wow!
01-11-15, 04:31 PM
#144
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I don't think I've ever heard or read a story of:
Bicycle and truck stopped at a stop light.
Bicycle tipped over with head under truck tires.
Truck pulled off....
Not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't occur very frequently.Bicycle tipped over with head under truck tires.
Truck pulled off....
The biggest reason that it is not as big of a risk as people might expect is that both bikes and cars typically stop at lights and etc. Nobody is moving fast in parking lots. The places where bikes tip due to pedal release failures are just not high risk places.
The bigger risks are when vehicles are moving, bikes are unseen and slam into car doors, or a car pulls out in front of a bike travelling 20 to 30 mph, or more.
I have done a few "emergency stops", safely extracting my feet from toeclips or pedals with cleats. However, if an accident had occurred, the fault wouldn't have been in the cleats, but rather cars and bikes not seeing each other in time (unless you would blame excess speed on cleats).
01-11-15, 05:19 PM
#145
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Juat got into road biking, and I installed clipless pedals on my bike this past weekend; the first time I've ever had such a contraption on a bike.
I was balancing myself against a wall on my left side, practicing clipping in and out. I rotated the pedals, clipping in and out practicing both feet. Then I extended my right leg and unclipped my left foot at the top of the pedal arc...I giggled like a schoolgirl as I fell helplessly to my right. Lesson learned, and after a weekend of riding a total of 87 miles with them, I didn't fall once. But I did hit a lot of unexpected bumps in the road; hard bumps not unlike those I had hit in the past with regular pedals which would cause one (or both) of my feet to come off. Nope. I hit the bump, cursed my luck, but a funny thing happened: my pedal motion continued on uninterrupted.
I was balancing myself against a wall on my left side, practicing clipping in and out. I rotated the pedals, clipping in and out practicing both feet. Then I extended my right leg and unclipped my left foot at the top of the pedal arc...I giggled like a schoolgirl as I fell helplessly to my right. Lesson learned, and after a weekend of riding a total of 87 miles with them, I didn't fall once. But I did hit a lot of unexpected bumps in the road; hard bumps not unlike those I had hit in the past with regular pedals which would cause one (or both) of my feet to come off. Nope. I hit the bump, cursed my luck, but a funny thing happened: my pedal motion continued on uninterrupted.
01-11-15, 08:15 PM
#147
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In any case, it remains an extremely minor source of serious bicycle injuries.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
01-11-15, 08:17 PM
#148
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Was there any data posted, or did I miss it?
I don't think I've ever heard or read a story of:
The biggest reason that it is not as big of a risk as people might expect is that both bikes and cars typically stop at lights and etc. Nobody is moving fast in parking lots. The places where bikes tip due to pedal release failures are just not high risk places.
The bigger risks are when vehicles are moving, bikes are unseen and slam into car doors, or a car pulls out in front of a bike travelling 20 to 30 mph, or more.
I have done a few "emergency stops", safely extracting my feet from toeclips or pedals with cleats. However, if an accident had occurred, the fault wouldn't have been in the cleats, but rather cars and bikes not seeing each other in time (unless you would blame excess speed on cleats).
I don't think I've ever heard or read a story of:
Bicycle and truck stopped at a stop light.
Bicycle tipped over with head under truck tires.
Truck pulled off....
Not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't occur very frequently.Bicycle tipped over with head under truck tires.
Truck pulled off....
The biggest reason that it is not as big of a risk as people might expect is that both bikes and cars typically stop at lights and etc. Nobody is moving fast in parking lots. The places where bikes tip due to pedal release failures are just not high risk places.
The bigger risks are when vehicles are moving, bikes are unseen and slam into car doors, or a car pulls out in front of a bike travelling 20 to 30 mph, or more.
I have done a few "emergency stops", safely extracting my feet from toeclips or pedals with cleats. However, if an accident had occurred, the fault wouldn't have been in the cleats, but rather cars and bikes not seeing each other in time (unless you would blame excess speed on cleats).
The OP's title suggest that clipless pedals are the BIGGEST hazard. Meaning more dangerous than drunk drivers, cars, pedestrians, weather, inattentiveness, you name it. The claim the OP is making is that nothing is more dangerous than clipless pedals.
If the OP was making the suggestion that there are risks; fine. But the title was a little, "much". I was just being sarcastic.
01-11-15, 08:32 PM
#149
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The title was overstated. Sorry. I've learned a great deal from this thread. Thanks to all those who have enlightened me.
My current position is this:
There are uses for clipless pedals (particularly if you climb / descend / or ride offroad)
Experienced riders are at no additional risk from clipless pedals
Beginners in clipless pedals (particularly in traffic) are a hazard to themselves and to others - If one wants to use clipless, then practice should be taken before riding in traffic
Feel free to disagree. I may learn more yet!
My current position is this:
There are uses for clipless pedals (particularly if you climb / descend / or ride offroad)
Experienced riders are at no additional risk from clipless pedals
Beginners in clipless pedals (particularly in traffic) are a hazard to themselves and to others - If one wants to use clipless, then practice should be taken before riding in traffic
Feel free to disagree. I may learn more yet!
01-11-15, 08:36 PM
#150
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The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)