TMonk

I think creatine is supposed to bulk you up, and that a lot of it is just water retention. I remember weight lifters and other strength athletes would use it in high school. Has your weight gone up?

Personally I've gone through phases of using protein or protein/carb powder religiously after workouts. I like the Fluid stuff. But lately I've been trying to just eat real food, especially when I'm at home. The recovery mixes are great for races, events or destination-based training rides where you won't have your kitchen at your disposal after your ride. Otherwise when at home I've just been eating food, even if it is just spooning some PB and a glass of milk to tie me over to an actual meal. Cheaper that way too.

I do use carb/electrolyte drink mix when I am going long, going hard, or when its hot. So half of the time (at least) its just water in my bottles. I've been considering buying some of the components individually in bulk and just formulating it myself. Should be a lot cheaper.

TMonk

Funny Zwift Race today. Zwift Crit Racing Club "Dutchy Estate", A race, 1st of 3 starters.

We were a group of three until about halfway in when one dude got dropped after some attack/counter attack shenanigans. Then it was me and Mr. Trek, who (screenshot below) did the lions share of the work. And by that, I mean like all of it. He tried to shake me a few times but couldn't do it, and then would just like motor at 5.0 w/kg continually. I just rode his wheel like ummmm.... ok? I'm not gonna get worn out riding 4-4.5 in his draft. He should have feigned some weakness, or at least just not pulled as hard so his attacks would have been more effective.

In fact I was pretty scared of him, until about 2 laps to go (of 6) I could tell that I had more snap and that he wasn't gonna shake me. I launched on the last little hill about 1.0 miles out and he couldn't hold match my attack. I felt bad just camping his wheel the whole time, but hey that's bike racing. He had stronger legs but didn't do a good job at the whole racing part.

Phatman

Weight has actually dropped, I’ve been trying to trim though. That’s part of the reason I’m doing the recovery shakes, I want to try to make sure I’m getting everything I need after a workout so I can make sure I’m staying on my meal plan for my regular meals. I have a tendency to overeat at meals if I have done a hard workout in an attempt to try to recover faster. Weirdly, eating more does make me feel better but it also, um, makes me gain weight.

I suspect that I’m just not really getting enough creatine to make any difference and I think that’s fine. I’m not trying to bulk.

Yeah that was kind of my goal with this protein—I drink the shake and eat a granola bar and it *should* technically get me to where I need to
be so I can eat normally during the day.

I’d be interested in a diy electrolyte solution if you’ve got one—it’s something I’ve been wanting to try. I’m normally a water only guy because I hate cleaning the **** out of my bottles, but my wife is concerned about her blood pressure (hereditary high BP runs in her family) so has starting cooking most meals with low sodium. The result is that I’m concerned I’m not really getting what I need when it’s hot out.

Hermes

Creatine...When I was sprint training at the track, many of the sprinters had a bottle filled with X that they drank post workout and many took creatine. The basis for the creatine is to replenish / add creatine to the muscles for use during very short hard efforts where the phosphate creatine is turned into ATP. The training was ALL maximal efforts.

Road cycling and racing, even sprint efforts are sub maximal. The benefit of creatine supplementation seems more murky although it is perfectly legal per WADA. Road cyclists will not want any additional unproductive weight such as excess water retention.

I tried creatine and it did not agree with my GI and caused my kidney filtration numbers to go up which spooked may GP doc and me. So I stopped creatine and my filtration results returned to normal. I get creatine from food in my current diet. YMMV

Hermes

In our training group, we have 6 interval sets. This week it was four sets of 30on/30 off on Zwift. This workout is the most difficult for me. This week, we had a different variation to the interval set. It was pick a big gear and do not change gears but spin the big gear easy for the off period. The big gear made the acceleration a lot harder / slower up to target power and the HR much less.

I got through my two interval sets for the week - Tuesday track and yesterday Zwift. All that is left is recovery and endurance.

Today is a recovery ride before going to the gym and destroying myself with strength training.

Edit: I expect the cadence police to show up and tell me that lower cadence does not make any difference and is a red herring.

Phatman

Gotcha. I suspect that the quantity I'm ingesting isn't really enough to make a difference good or bad. I have a pretty sensitive stomach these days and I've had zero issues with this protein powder so its probably just a dash here and there so they can advertise it as having creatine in it.

Scary about the kidney stuff though. I'm 37 and have never had a "real" adult physical before, I actually plan to start getting a full bloodwork panel this year, hopefully it doesn't show anything unusual.

TMonk

Off day from the bike today, did my lighter (of two) weekly strength routines in the garage. Tomorrow, 3 - 3.5 hrs of high z2. Also, my preferred source of creatine is a ribeye grilled medium rare

Hermes

Rode one hour Saturday and Sunday with a D BOT on Zwift. I guess that makes me a solid "D" - whoopee. I am going to start mixing in some "C" BOT riding. Riding and racing on Zwift is fun, addictive, convenient, safe and a great workout but it is still riding the trainer (even a very fancy trainer) and equivalent to putting lipstick on a pig.

Hopefully, I will get outside this week for some endurance work. The interval workouts are just too good on Zwift to try to do on the road. The gang in my training group agree that Zwift intervals are superior to the road. We can drive ourselves harder and deeper without any fear of road obstacles and losing control of the bike.

himespau 

No pesky stop signs or intersections to mess up an interval. Just do what's gotta get done without any of the mess. Workouts are my least favorite part of Zwift (would rather find a race that looks to emphasize the same things than do an actual workout), but they're so much better than trying to do the same workout on the road. Endurance rides are the opposite (assuming weather isn't a problem), but workouts, yeah, Zwift (or equivalent) all the way.

Phatman

Yeah, I’ve heard this argument before, but learning to control your bike when you’re redlined is a really really important skill. Hermes, it sounds like you’ve got plenty of experience but for a newer rider getting into the sport, they’ve GOT to practice riding hard IRL.

I remember racing collegiate back in the day 2004-2008 and the Naval Academy guys were, for the most part, not allowed off base for training, so they did most of their rides on trainers. They were all CRAZY STRONG and they crashed SO MUCH. Whodve thought they were setting a trend?

I get that finding a good interval road is hard, but it seems like a worthy goal.

TMonk

Stage 1 "lap it up" series on Queens Hwy: Dropped/29, quit 10 min in
Evo CC Lucete Express "Sprint" race: 1st/8

I lined up for the first one unprepared. Had been on the bike for about 5 min, no warmup, head wasn't in it yet. Competitive series too, so I guess that's what I get for not respecting it! After 10 min over 300w (~4.6 w/kg) of mostly closing gaps from dropped riders, I found myself with 11s to bridge on a downhill. Not gonna happen. But that's ok! Legs had plenty left and I wasn't too fazed by it. If at first you don't succeed - try, try again!

Second race, I was warmed up and ready to dig in. Hard start shelled it down to 4 of us for most of the race. Things were getting easy so I threw a couple of attacks in, and found myself with 5s each time, but they bridged. The last attack was reeled in about 2 min from the finish, but I was able to recover and it looks like I had the best sprint. Nice!

TMonk

Here's a snippet from my outdoor ride on Sunday. I wanted 3 hrs of high z2. I considered Zwift, since it's easier to hold steady power, but I'm glad I went out and felt the wind in my hair a bit (so to speak). It was quite overcast with our typical "May Gray" coastal marine layer, but again it was great to get out.

Hermes

Tuesday and Thursday were interval days 3 sets of 8 x(30" on 1' off). I did both workouts on Zwift. All that is left for the week is endurance and recovery.

bampilot06

In Dallas for work training. Brought the emonda and my trainer with me. Trying to get accustomed to this thing. Yesterday attempted 4 sets of 40/20s but failed on the first set. Outside I can hold 400 but that felt impossible on the trainer.
I stopped that and did a zwift attack workout, that went okay.
Today was SST long. 5 mins threshold followed by 5 mins of sweet spot 3 times. 4 sets of those. That went better but still felt much harder than outside.

Garmin is informing me that I am spending too much time in threshold and below, so tomorrow I will re attempt 40/20 or maybe 30/30s but lower the power to 350. Hopefully I will be able to complete that.

ERG mode is off for all of this.

TMonk

You use the same power meter indoors as out?

bampilot06

my power meter is on the bike, but it’s using power data from the wahoo core trainer.

Hermes

bampilot06 I suck indoors. Period. Rollers, dumb trainer, smart trainer, it does not matter. My power is lower on the trainer and that is that. I have seen large wattage differences inside versus outside on 30" efforts based upon level of effort feel. And I have tested my SRM against a Tacx and Kickr power meters and they all read the same indoors.

I ignore the difference, make an indoor adjustment to settings and go more by feel when riding inside.

Since I have been riding Zwift more, my indoor power is improving. Now my outdoor power probably sucks.

bampilot06

Thanks mate. TMONK has told me this before, but everyone else I asked would just tell me to HTFU, and made it sound like it was me. Glad to hear I am not the only one.

The idea of using my smart trainer for intervals sounds like a fantastic idea, in theory. I hate riding on my trainer, doesn’t matter what I am doing. Free ride, pace partner, intervals, I absolutely hate it. Everything feels harder, longer etc. I have friends that routinely do 100 mile rides on zwift. I don’t know how they do it.

TMonk

bampilot06 have you compared your outdoor power meter with the trainer simultaneously? There is a chance that your trainer reads lower, and that you are actually going harder indoors. But at any rate, many people have to aim for 2-3% (or more) lower targets indoors when using the same meter, myself included.

Also, I think if you source a larger screen, the visual aspect would become more immersive and more enjoyable. So I recommend re-assessing your indoor power targets, and improving your user experience with a larger screen. Still, some people just hate riding indoors, and while that is very likely for you, there are some things you can do to improve your current configuration that may help you, possibly a lot. It's worth spending some time and energy to figure out.

Hermes

One of my prior coaches told me that he found that cyclists fall into two categories. Ones that like torque in their legs and ones that like to burst around as they ride. I am a bursty rider. In football, I played defensive safety and could accelerate, close quickly, move laterally and backwards with agility and deliver hard explosive hits. None of that is a competitive advantage in road cycling except for closing gaps, creating gaps and sprints. I can hit and recover in cycling with impunity.

The trainer is for athletes that love torque in their legs and thrive on constant force for longer periods of time.

That coach suggested a 10% reduction in power for inside. Another coach I used suggested 8%. My current coach's recommendation is that workouts are not about the performance in absolute numbers but doing the intent of the workout to completion and focusing on the perceived effort. If I am achieving the same perceived effort indoors as outdoors then what the power meters reads does not matter.

One can drive themselves nuts trying to consistently hit power numbers and set PRs and etc. Racing and achieving results is a long game and exceptional performance should be achieved at the races/events. One wants to show up to race with great form, a deep matchbook and reserve capacity. Then relying on the perceived effort in one's legs will carry the day.

Yesterday, I did a morning workout on Zwift in a meetup (tethered together) hosted by my coach where everyone who showed up did the same interval set customized to their FTP. I have a sett of his workouts programmed into Zwift that I select from. During the tethered rides, Zwift indicates W/kg and positions participants in the pack according to their speed algorithms. So in that meetup, I was mid pack and there is more incentive to keep going. One is more inclined to do whatever it takes to complete the workout.

My suggestion for you is to get rid of any and all thoughts about the trainer and use the trainer and Zwift as but yet another tool in your arsenal. Personally, I am not going to give up Zwift and the smart trainer as a competitive advantage to my competitors even though I think a demon invented the trainer and the devil himself invented a smart trainer and Zwift.

TMonk

VO2 max intervals this morning, "just because". Seems weird since I'm not training for anything specific this year, and well, they're hard. I think I just wanted to test myself and see how I responded.

I rode:
1x4'
1x3'
1x10'
1x3'

Hard starts and then I let myself settle into a moderate pace that was a few watts below target by mid interval. Was able to push up at the end and hit my targets each time. The last interval it wasn't so "intrinsic" and I sort of had to press the issue (pun intended) to hit my target. Running out of AWC.

Good workout!

bampilot06

Lower the “power gates” to the bottom of zone 6 according to my garmin and re did 40/20s yesterday. I was able to complete the workout but it was def hard.
Take aways, my HR only entered VO2 max near the end of the last set. So garmin logged it as threshold.
On the trainer my legs don’t feel like they have the strength to hold the power to get my HR up to where I am benefiting VO2 max. What I mean, 40 seconds on at 320 watts with 20 seconds off is just enough time for me to recover and repeatedly hold 320 watts for 40 seconds but my HR never went up past 175. If I HTFU and held let’s say 350 watts for 40 seconds I don’t think I could have completed the workout. My legs on the trainer get tired. I don’t know if I am making sense.

I think maybe next time I’ll do 40/30s. I’ll have the gate set at 310 but go as hard as I can for 40 seconds. I use the gate for reference anyways.

bampilot06

And I just realized this post doesn’t make sense.

Hermes

2 hour endurance ride along the coast from PB to Encinitas and back. Good legs and kept the cadence up. Since my wife was racing on Zwift, I rode solo.