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Helmet - Impact

Old 11-23-19, 01:10 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
BTW, as an aside it's relatively chemically inert aside from solvents.
The most common solvent boils at 100C at 1 bar.

Try again.

-mr. bill

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Old 11-23-19, 07:23 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist
That is so interesting, thank you. So, but, that would suggest if I live in San Diego or Barcelona that my time frame for helmet replacement should be quite a bit different than if I live in Manchester or Seattle, right? Do you think the bike shops in sunnier climates know this?
Perhaps although altitude might make a larger difference. The UV flux is greater at Denver’s altitude than it is at sea level. Ozone, which would also have an influence, is greater at higher altitudes because of the higher UV flux and its interaction with hydrocarbons from fuels. If you stored the helmet in an area where there are lots of electrical machines, you’ll have higher ozone levels as well.
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Old 11-23-19, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
And it’s not just UV, heat-cold cycles, water (particularly salt), chemicals from sunscreen....

Not to mention shampoo and conditioner.

-mr. bill
Some yes. Some no. I wouldn’t expect too much reaction with salt since styrene is nonpolar. Heat and cold probably won’t have too much of an influence either. Sunscreen is a maybe as is shampoo although shampoo is rather polar saw well. Other solvents like acetone and some hydrocarbons would have detrimental effects but those will be immediate rather than time dependent.
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Old 11-23-19, 09:11 PM
  #54  
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Sigh. Why are EPS marine floats usually encapsulated? It’s not chemical, it’s structural. EPS is mostly NOT polystyrene. It’s mostly air. But more than that, it is permeable.

-mr. bill

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Old 11-24-19, 12:22 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist
Well, to me the elephant in the room is contrecoup injury. These helmets, whatever their technology, only address the coup injury. The only solution to keeping the brain from slamming into the opposite side of the skull is prevention, as far as I know. And I don't know anyone who knows how to prevent bicycle crashes.
Anything that reduces “coup” reduces contrecoup, by definition. Concussion is the elephant. Helmets are not good at reducing rotational forces.
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Old 11-24-19, 06:09 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Anything that reduces “coup” reduces contrecoup, by definition. Concussion is the elephant. Helmets are not good at reducing rotational forces.
From what I've read helmets, or at least most helmets, are NOT designed to prevent concussions. MIPs and Wave Cell seem to be two that do take concussion prevention seriously but just how good are they really?

Cheers
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Old 11-24-19, 06:50 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
From what I've read helmets, or at least most helmets, are NOT designed to prevent concussions. MIPs and Wave Cell seem to be two that do take concussion prevention seriously but just how good are they really?

Cheers
Exactly. I'll probably buy a MIPS or Wave Cell when I replace my current helmet (which has been out in the sun a lot ), but I've seen too many good ideas fail in clinical trials to place great faith in it.
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Old 11-24-19, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
From what I've read helmets, or at least most helmets, are NOT designed to prevent concussions. MIPs and Wave Cell seem to be two that do take concussion prevention seriously but just how good are they really?

Cheers
That's an overstatement. Pretty much any helmet will reduce the likelihood of concussions, although their primary function is to prevent fractures and the like. Reducing the shock of a linear impact, which they all are designed to do, will reduce the degree of "sloshing" the brain does. Only some helmets are designed to reduce rotational forces, which is basically entirely an issue of concussions.

As far as the effectiveness of Mips and WaveCell, the theory seems good, and the real world data is probably never going to be good, so I'm betting on it in the absence of any good reason not to.

BTW, the biggest reason there will never be good clinical data on this is that odds are that good outcomes are going to basically be invisible. How do you measure prevented concussions? Who calls the ambulance for a crash you walk away from unscathed?
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Old 11-25-19, 08:51 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Perhaps although altitude might make a larger difference. The UV flux is greater at Denver’s altitude than it is at sea level. Ozone, which would also have an influence, is greater at higher altitudes because of the higher UV flux and its interaction with hydrocarbons from fuels. If you stored the helmet in an area where there are lots of electrical machines, you’ll have higher ozone levels as well.
Since the thread is already off into the (nonexistent) degradation of helmets due to water, and a couple of more pertinent tangents, it won't hurt to indulge a little more.

It's absolutely true that UV increases with altitude, about 6% per kilometer. However, it is not true that this means UV flux is greater in Denver than other cities. Mainly because the higher latitude, due to angle of the Sun through the atmosphere, increases the amount of air that the UV travels through. There are other factors of course, significantly the Ozone layer and also general cloudiness and precipitation.

Denver has a slightly lower UV index than here in Alpharetta GA, and considerably lower than in Miami.

Styrofoam has good Ozone resistance btw.
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Old 11-25-19, 08:56 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist
That is so interesting, thank you. So, but, that would suggest if I live in San Diego or Barcelona that my time frame for helmet replacement should be quite a bit different than if I live in Manchester or Seattle, right? Do you think the bike shops in sunnier climates know this?
No, the degradation due to UV is limited to the upper layer and has almost no significance to the mechanical strength.

And even that won't occur unless you remove the plastic cover and scrape off the protective surface film.
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Old 11-25-19, 09:45 AM
  #61  
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Really wish someone would stop reading polystyrene data sheets and instead start reading expanded polystyrene data sheets.

(p.s. MOST helments have exposed EPS. The EPS is *NOT* completely encapsulated by the micro shell, which is bloody OBVIOUS if you bother look at a bicycle helmet.)




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Old 11-25-19, 02:34 PM
  #62  
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Fluids

The term "fluid" was mentioned a few times on the first page of the thread, in the context of the composition of certain helmets, and was a little confusing. Fluid describes both liquids and gasses. Fluids conform to the shape of the container they're in. Gasses are compressible fluids, liquids are incompressible fluids. Now go ahead and tell me I'm mansplaining.
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Old 11-25-19, 03:34 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Limper
Now go ahead and tell me I'm mansplaining.
Nah. Now someone who ‘splains and welcomes “VALID” corrections, I don’t know.

-mr. bill
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Old 11-25-19, 03:36 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Limper
The term "fluid" was mentioned a few times on the first page of the thread, in the context of the composition of certain helmets, and was a little confusing. Fluid describes both liquids and gasses. Fluids conform to the shape of the container they're in. Gasses are compressible fluids, liquids are incompressible fluids. Now go ahead and tell me I'm mansplaining.
Personally I intended "fluid" in the general sense that you mention (except for plasma of course) because I envision some shock absorption due to properties of the fluid flow, which could occur with either liquid or gas. That's really how a "gel helmet" might work, in addition to elastic cell walls. I'm not aware of the specifics of any product like that.

Someone was worried about air trapped in the cells (thinking that they don't store energy when compressed or something like that), but it doesn't have to do with the gel helmet question.
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Old 11-25-19, 04:38 PM
  #65  
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BTW, amateur physicists can go into the kitchen again to discover WHY NO HELMET can “prevent” a concussion.

INVALID!


-mr. bill
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Old 11-25-19, 05:14 PM
  #66  
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Helmet-inpact

Skimmed the many (often seemingly well informed) responses so I may have missed NFL helmet research and others using accelerometers. I doubt that helmets can reduce initial forces or contracoup . forces -to much degree. Add multiple other factors and the situation is even murkier. Is that all we can take away form discussion?
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Old 11-25-19, 05:26 PM
  #67  
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The filament heats up and emits light.

BTW, always wear a helmet. I spent a few years as a personal injury lawyer and learned that falling from a bike standing still is enough to crack open your skull. That was enough to convince me.
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Old 11-25-19, 05:49 PM
  #68  
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FWIW, Formula 1, 2 and 3 drivers wear accelerometers, not in their helmets, but in their ears.

The NFL suspended their pilot four years ago. (Looking to the NFL for concussion data is like looking to Phillip Morris for....)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-25-19 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 11-25-19, 10:08 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
A helmet can make a blow to your head that would otherwise be harmless MUCH more comfortable to endure. If only because it will probably prevent scalp laceration and/or bruising. If the blow is serious enough to kill or seriously damage your brain then a helmet cannot save you. Do not spend more than $80 for a helmet, ever. There is nothing that a $300 helmet can do that the $80 (or $30) can't. Styrofoam is the active ingredient in all helmets and the ONLY way (as outlined above) to make a 1.5" thick liner twice as effective is to make the liner 3" thick! Would that be practical? Helmets keep us safe because most of us don't ride enough to run up against the law of averages of serious helmet failure. With all due respect to the o.p. I don't think I have ever read a more pointless exercise in mansplaining. WTF? I have NEVER seen anyone supply an explanation about how helmets work that was incorrect or correct for that matter. The intuitive deduction is that the material of the helmet liner absorbs the blow. Somehow. No one cares how. This is America. How many people could correctly explain how a lightbulb works. The old kind before LED's. Again, WTF? My admittedly harsh reaction comes mainly from the unsolicited nature of the o.p. I'm not understanding why we needed this.
Jobst Brandt, a noted bicycle authority of a very high degree, and mechanical engineer, advocated AGAINST helmets. The benefits are not intuitively obvious, even to an engineer who should have known better. Jobst effing Brandt. Look it up.
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Old 11-25-19, 10:31 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Friends, I don't care how good helmets get. I don't want or need a better one. What I want is never to have an unplanned dismount off my bike for any reason! The best helmet in the world can't save you from a broken neck! You must not come off that bike! Tell yourself that at the start of every ride. Believe it. Do all in your power NOT to need that helmet to keep your brains from being scrambled. Your brains are no good to you if you are in a power-chair. Well, some people make VERY good use of their brains despite some pretty horrific injuries or congenital disablements to their bodies but, notwithstanding that, I'd rather spend the money saved not buying the best helmet sold on reliable tires, top of the line brake pads, things that can make a difference to how a bike handles and operates.

I smile when people say "ride like they (the cagers) can't see you" and then they add 10lbs. of lights and passive signaling to their bike. I'd like to suggest that people ride like they have NO helmet because when all is really said and done you don't really have much going on up there. The riders who split their helmets in half and credit it with saving their lives don't really know that it in fact did! What it probably did was make what might have been a mighty painful injury, maybe even a serious concussion, the helmet made it much less serious. Any decent helmet can do that. Anything given a CSPC rating and legally allowed to be sold in the U.S. can do that job.

Do you know why air travel is so safe? Because airplanes simply must not be allowed to crash with hundreds of people on board. That's why the NTSB is going to be up Boeing's hoo hoo for the rest of their existence. They allowed the unthinkable to happen. If the kind of international rigor towards airline safety was extended to road vehicle operations the reduction in car, motorcycle, bicycle and anything else that moves on roads would become as safe as or safer than for airlines. It starts with attitude. If you think that you simply cannot ever allow yourself to crash then you might crash once in a lifetime. Once. One too many but ... there you are. Is that what we have? Nope. Lots of you have crashed several times. Real crashes with broken bones and lasting injuries. Some of you have crashed so many times your spouses no longer allow you to ride. Don't be that guy. Take every ride seriously. Don't worry about what device or piece of clothing or brand of helmet can keep you safe. Worry about how YOU can keep YOURSELF safe. You have a lot more influence over the outcome than you think.
Helmets have saved my brain. Real experience. You cannot anticipate everything. I am aware in traffic, but on a bike trail with zero cars, the front tire went flat without me noticing (on skinny road tires) and suddenly down I went. A couple other crashes over several decades.

Your rationale on helmets is no different from saying "drive better instead of wearing seat belts". That's B.S., and this is from a driver with professional high performance skill level. I'd like cars to come with a 4-point harness instead of 3-point, I'd take the time to use it. I no longer will drive a convertible without a roll bar, either integral or aftermarket.

Further, when I first started snowboarding in the '90s, I caught a heelside edge and went down hard enough to see stars. Thereafter I wore my first bike helmet, a Bell hardshell that the soft sponge foam had worn too big inside for bike use but was a perfect fit with a fleece balaclava. The next time I went down, I left a big divot in the hardpack snow but walked away unscathed, not even slightly stunned. A couple years later, Sonny Bono died from hitting a tree with his head while skiing off-piste, no helmet. Michael Shumacher suffered brain injury while skiing from hitting a rock with his head in a helmet but he foolishly had mounted a GoPro camera to it and that concentrated the impact.

I don't spend a ton on a helmet, I buy stuff on winter sale. If it fits well, has a safety certification, it's good. The rest is style and brand. However I have seen some new innovations which may become differentiators.

Being "anti-helmet" is like being "anti-vaccination". If all you are saying is that you don't need a better one than a basic one, fine. If you are saying that bicycling skill is a substitute for a helmet, you are wrong. A year or two ago, Lance Armstrong, yes that Lance Armstrong (who may have issues but lack of skill with a bike is not one of them), posted a pic after he had taken a tumble on a mountain bike and went in for a head MRI. He was wearing a helmet, and turned out to be fine.
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Old 11-25-19, 10:45 PM
  #71  
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Virginia Tech Helmet Ratings

Forgive me if they were already mentioned in this thread, but the Virginia Tech Helmet Ratings are a good source for reviews and a look at testing processes. I'd include the URL but am blocked since I'm new here.
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Old 11-25-19, 11:54 PM
  #72  
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Hey don't advocate for or against helmets in the thread please. Those arguments/opinions are (by site policy) restricted to the Helmet Thread, and you'll get this thread transferred there anyway if it keeps up.
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Old 11-26-19, 08:42 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Michael Shumacher suffered brain injury while skiing from hitting a rock with his head in a helmet but he foolishly had mounted a GoPro camera to it and that concentrated the impact.
That remains nothing but a rumor, and it still has not been detemined if the camera played any role at all in his injuries.

Did Michael Schumacher’s helmet cam cause brain injury?
Michael Schumacher current status - please respect his privacy.
Brief Autosport Article. Yes, it's behind a paywall. You get three free articles.

However, even in Forumla 1, with no camera mounted to the helment, and even with helmets and crash structures (particularly the horseshoe shaped cockpit colar) - drivers still get brain injuries.

Fernando Alonso (Fernando did not race in Australia on March 15, returned to racing for the Malasian Grand Prix on March 29. Jules Bianchi later died.)
Sergio Perez (Sergio attempted to return to racing in Canada but withdrew during first practice session and returned to racing for the European Grand Prix on June 26.)

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Old 11-26-19, 12:03 PM
  #74  
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I knew my earlier posts would rankle some. Good. Because it is evident, even in this small community of riders who should mostly know better, that there remains superstition and fear with regard to bike safety on the road. On the road. I have never knowingly ridden even a short distance off road. Rather than approach street riding with a "sigh, there isn't anything you can do about road safety except spend huge amounts of money on safety gear and electronic gadgets like lookback radar, even so, accidents happen" attitude, I prefer to "shoot for the stars, land on the Moon". I'll take the Moon. I take the line that any 'incident' however small, was mostly my fault. No, OF COURSE, no one can prevent all crashes, it doesn't need to be said! You can pretend that you can, the power of suggestion is amazing. There is no harm in this, trust me on that. There is also ZERO harm in doing without entertainment when riding in urban environments. First, you don't need the distraction, and 2. If your hearing is normal, you can HEAR things you can't see and this is very valuable. I am not surprised when I get to a corner to find a car just around it. I heard them coming. One third (33.3%) of accidents at an intersection involve a turning car. You NEED to expect them. That is easier to do if you hear them too. It isn't (all) dumb luck that I've had the same helmet for over 10 years and it doesn't have an obvious scratch on it. And I ride every day, multiple times a day, rain or shine and in a big city urban grid. You may not be ABLE to find a non-MIPS or other advanced tech helmet anymore. That's fine. My wife's helmet is MIPS because it was. She didn't know (or care) what MIPS was when she bought it. The price was right and it got good reviews on Amazon. She knew that her previous helmet and my current one was/is a Giro. If you are in a crash serious enough that the higher technology of a more expensive or more advanced helmet can make a difference ... ... well I am not going to link the picture here, but on the Internet is a picture of a very dead (obviously so) helmeted rider. That's all I've got. Hope its enough. Be careful out there.
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Old 11-26-19, 01:13 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I knew my earlier posts would rankle some. Good. Because it is evident, even in this small community of riders who should mostly know better, that there remains superstition and fear with regard to bike safety on the road. On the road. I have never knowingly ridden even a short distance off road. Rather than approach street riding with a "sigh, there isn't anything you can do about road safety except spend huge amounts of money on safety gear and electronic gadgets like lookback radar, even so, accidents happen" attitude, I prefer to "shoot for the stars, land on the Moon". I'll take the Moon. I take the line that any 'incident' however small, was mostly my fault. No, OF COURSE, no one can prevent all crashes, it doesn't need to be said! You can pretend that you can, the power of suggestion is amazing. There is no harm in this, trust me on that. There is also ZERO harm in doing without entertainment when riding in urban environments. First, you don't need the distraction, and 2. If your hearing is normal, you can HEAR things you can't see and this is very valuable. I am not surprised when I get to a corner to find a car just around it. I heard them coming. One third (33.3%) of accidents at an intersection involve a turning car. You NEED to expect them. That is easier to do if you hear them too. It isn't (all) dumb luck that I've had the same helmet for over 10 years and it doesn't have an obvious scratch on it. And I ride every day, multiple times a day, rain or shine and in a big city urban grid. You may not be ABLE to find a non-MIPS or other advanced tech helmet anymore. That's fine. My wife's helmet is MIPS because it was. She didn't know (or care) what MIPS was when she bought it. The price was right and it got good reviews on Amazon. She knew that her previous helmet and my current one was/is a Giro. If you are in a crash serious enough that the higher technology of a more expensive or more advanced helmet can make a difference ... ... well I am not going to link the picture here, but on the Internet is a picture of a very dead (obviously so) helmeted rider. That's all I've got. Hope its enough. Be careful out there.
So basically, all that wall of text to say be careful even if you're wearing a helmet, don't wear headphones, and I have a picture of a dead guy in helmet?

Seriously, if I were teaching a course in persuasive writing, this would be a great example of how not to do it.
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