Originally Posted by rawklobster

Then I realized. They weren't as comfortable, and probably wanted to get to camp quick, so they could relax and be comfortable.

Originally Posted by rawklobster

I don't mind hand pressure if it's low enough that I don't experience any pain, but even the moderate hand pressure on my Brompton forced me to get Ergon grips and even then, it's only alleviated it for maybe 30 minutes from 5-8 minutes.

Originally Posted by Trevtassie

When I'm on the back position pretty upright, definitely not sit up and beg though, because that's just hard work on a loaded bike. There are a lot of variables to play with. For example, I started out with a short stem so the rear bars were behind the stem. That just felt completely wrong descending because the bars moved weird. (That seems pretty important, not to have the braking (ie descending) hand position behind the axis of the stem wherever that projects up to your hand position) Then I had the original quill stem that was long but too low. Then a quill adapter that was great with height but with the bars angled back didn't make any difference to my body position. I wanted to be more upright when cruising and flat when wind bashing. Finally worked out about angling the bars forward a bit. That ended up with the back position a bit above the seat and the front a bit below. I'm definitely convinced you need at least one position where you can get down out of the wind, and that is comfortable to stay in, because normally you get those nasty headwinds on long open flat stretches. Being able to rest on your arms in an aero position is pretty good. I don't stand up much, because you can't really with 40-50kg of bike and junk (depends if I've picked up that evenings beer and supplies), but if I do the angled down side bars still work OK as a hand position.
The butterfly bars do have the hands angled opposite to the boscos in the braking position. My bars at the back slope down and slightly back towards the outside bend which seems like a fairly natural hand position, my wrist is neutral. They do feel a little weird at first because your hands are closer together, though my bars are fairly narrow overall.

The posters talking about being upright to see stuff are dead right. You want to be able to look around without getting a sore neck, otherwise what's the point of touring? May as well ride a bike path at home. That being said you can train your neck muscles a bit. So a totally upright position may feel great from the start, whereas bending you neck back might hurt a bit for a while until the muscles get their act together. In my "upright" position my neck is fine now, it hurt a bit for the first few days. Head down bashing into the wind I can't look around much without getting a bit sore, but then it's mostly flat, open and boring anyway!

Originally Posted by DanBell

Is this a joke or do you actually think they rode faster than you because they were uncomfortable on their bikes?

Originally Posted by Clyde1820

Got any photos of you in position, on the Pashley, the position where your hands go numb after 30mins?

Sounds like you might need to toy with saddle, bar and/or stem height, to get the balance right, such that your hands aren't taking quite the load. I, too, dislike the occasional numbing of the hands. Helps to have more positions, for the hands. But for me it's far better to nail the basic fore/aft loading so that it's nearly no issue to begin with. Grips and more hand positions end up just being icing on the cake.

Good luck, with whatever you choose.

Originally Posted by rawklobster

I've never been comfortable with drop bars. If you have tried upright riding with less pressure on hands/arms/shoulders, what was the experience with more weight on your butt? I know it's less efficient, and I'm not against significant aero drag. Thanks for the Aero Bar suggestion, but I'm really just looking for anecdotal experience with upright riding. I'm willing to sacrifice efficient riding for comfort and avoid leaning forward. I'm hoping comfy tires (Big Bens) and a wide sprung Brooks with more surface area will help with the more-weight-on-butt.

There is tons of information on why drops/hunched are better, etc. Aero drag is better, efficiency is better, climbing is better... But what if the rider doesn't care about any of those things? Why would they still choose to ride that way if there's a more comfortable alternative? Perhaps because the alternative is also uncomfortable, but that's the question I'm looking to answer. I may find that nobody has managed comfortable long distance tour riding this way, but I'm hopeful.

Also consider that I will be pedalling relatively slowly. I don't like to ride too fast. Being in a hunched position doesn't sound very appealing at a slow pace.

Originally Posted by DropBarFan

Have ridden a few upright bikes for up to 2 hours, only one that was decidedly uncomfortable was a 1-size-fits-all Dahon folder with IIRC small-diameter straight bars, hands got numb after an hour. But in re upright bars I'd guess moustache or butterfly types probably more ergonomic for longer touring than MTB-style straights. Sprung Brooks sounds like a good idea & also one might consider a Thudbuster seat-post which has some positive reviews. Advantage of Thudbuster being that you get suspension w/whatever saddle you choose. Upright style places more weight on butt but OTOH plenty of drop-bar saddles aren't comfy either.

Millions of folks tour on upright bikes after all. In Europe lots of people go on short-medium tours with their regular ole' weekday city bikes, no? I'd say follow your instinct & go w/upright.

Originally Posted by elmore leonard

you need a set up that gets more comfortable as you ride along. Having a uncomfortable bike means you will just ride less and less. try a few different seats and handle bars out until you find the right set up. also keep a tool in your kit that lets you can change the handle bars to different position and up or down

Originally Posted by rawklobster

Originally Posted by DanBell

Interesting with the other information. It certainly sounds like of the people you met on that tour, they might not have been stopping as frequently as you. It's just a bit of a leap to suggest that the reason for that is that they're uncomfortable on their bikes. As noted earlier in the thread though, people tour for different reasons and get enjoyment out of different aspects of a tour, which will lead to different decisions about how far or fast to go, when and where to stop, food, lodging, etc. And that's one of the things I love about cycling. It's so many things to so many people. I love the infinite variety you see in the way people utilize and enjoy bicycles.

In any event, I hope your IF turns out to be the bike you're looking for and you right bolt upright chasing the sun to the next adventure.

Originally Posted by rawklobster

I hope you don't think I was criticizing.

Originally Posted by DanBell

I didn't take it that way at all. I think it was you who noted earlier that people tour in different ways.

Sounds like you have a great trip planned. I'm doing Washington state to South America from spring next year and I'm already counting down the days.

Originally Posted by marlowe

Great read here on these posts. I just rode 1100 miles/journey on a Surly Disc Trucker with the Jones H-bars. I really wanted the more upright position for the trip. So i brought the handlebars up somewhat with extensions and tilted the H-bar up as the pic shows. I rode 30-60 mile average days and did some century runs also. On a headwind day the upright position noticeably slowed you down. Due to my size I like to say it was like a box sitting on a box. So the wind could really make life miserable at times. But overall, I really liked the sitting up position. You can read my blog of the trip at the link. Going Home.
Marlowe
Great Falls, MT.

Originally Posted by DanBell

Thanks for the link! I'm looking at my route now so I'll let you know if I have any questions! Ok, enough thread hijacking. Back to discussing the merits of upright riding.

Originally Posted by rawklobster

I'll read up more on fore/aft loading. Not sure exactly what that's referring to.

Originally Posted by Trevtassie

A sprung seat post or saddle is a must if you're upright. I have the former with an imitation Brooks (a Gyes). That works well.

Originally Posted by Clyde1820

Just meant that the amount of weight on your tush versus your hands varies depending on settings. (How much weight is forward versus rearward.) Check the saddle height and position, along with the bar height, stem height, stem length. Everyone's different, given differing levels of fitness, age/injuries, preferences for comfort, etc.

Originally Posted by rawklobster

My instinct is definitely upright. Just don't want to make an expensive mistake in case my gut is wrong. *smile*

Originally Posted by edthesped

As far as efficiency at most I get about a 3 MPH difference between the upright Randonee and my drop bar AWOL and loaded or unloaded I notice that I still pass more than get passed, not that I try it's just my pace. My daughter and I ride together a bit when she's in town and when we pass road bikers on the upright she sometimes sings the Wizard of Oz melody as we go by, she really does it to make fun of me as I also get the "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too" a lot when I load it on the car.

Maybe instead of going for a custom frame you can spend the money on two bikes and decide for yourself, you may find each will serve a purpose for you. If I had to trim my herd to one bike the Vaya would be the first to go but I'd be hard pressed to choose between the AWOL and the Randonee with Boscos as both are really fun to ride. On long scenic rides I'd give the edge to the Randonee but in all fairness I've yet to try the AWOL on multi day rides. I always say I'm going to try the AWOL on multi day rides but end up taking the Randonee because I know I'll be comfortable on it day after day.

Originally Posted by gregf83

I think you need to work on bike fit, perhaps with a good local fitter, before you start talking to a framebuilder. You don't need a custom frame to adjust your riding position as that is easily managed with simple component changes. Find a setup that works before you commit to a custom frame.