manuelgabriel

Hello everyone. I don't know if this thread has already been made but I can't find any so I'm just going to start a new one.

I know a frame builder and I want a customized bike for extended touring. Probabaly going to base it on the design of Surly Long Haul Trucker or Crosscheck. The only issue I have is the material that I am going to use. Cromoly or hitensile. I know that the cromoly is lighter than the hitensile. Other than that, I don't know the other advantages especially on touring bikes. The price that I would pay if I choose Cromoly is about $400 but if I choose the hitensile, I'm just going to pay $150. So my question, is Cromoly worth the price or is hi-tensile good enough. Thank you.

veganbikes

What frame builder is working with Hi-Ten steel? I wouldn't want that on a bike unless it were purely a beat up beater bike that I would almost want stolen. Go with a good CroMo steel, it will have a much better ride quality and certainly be lighter. Though it sounds like you might just want to buy a LHT if you are looking to get someone to try and replicate it.

CliffordK

Something doesn't add up. Is that $150 or $400 for just the tubing? Or the complete build?

Here are some examples of tube sets for $80 to about $150 for double butted chromoly tube sets.
TUBE SETS :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.

Straight Chromoly tubing should be a little cheaper.

A custom rack or cargo bike will take a bit more tubing. And, it is possible your dimensions wouldn't quite fit Nova's pre-cut tubing.

Anyway, as veganbikes said, I'm not sure why you would want to invest in a custom bike with obsolete materials. The labor, no matter how you pay for it becomes a huge chunk of the value of the frame.

Oh, Philippines, perhaps you have different material and labor availability there.

Anyway...
High Tensile Steel. Heavier.
Chromoly Steel. Lighter and stronger.

Essentially all modern alloys are weldable.

manuelgabriel

The most famous frame builder here in the Philippines stil works with hi-ten steel. Yup buying a brand new LHT is an potion but I'm not a rich guy. Sure, the more expensive the better but I can't just spend money on an LHT that is why I'm looking to build a hi-ten bike. I'm just checking my options.

manuelgabriel

The complete build of the frame. That's what the frame builder quoted me

manuelgabriel

Other than the weight, are there any advantages of chromoly steel?

unterhausen

you can make up for the lack of strength of high tensile steel by using more of it. I assume this framebuilder knows how to build frames, either should work

CliffordK

Your labor market does change the dynamics of things a bit. Here, it might be hard to get a custom paint job for $150.

Once you have your tubing and dimensions, you can estimate the frame weight. But your builder might also give you an estimate.

Touring is an interesting niche. Nobody wants to lug around an extra 5 pounds. But, if your bike and gear is 60 pounds vs 65 pounds, how much difference does it really make? Is 5 pounds worth $300?

At least here, there are a lot of under-appreciated 1980's and 1990's MTBs which can make excellent heavy hauling bikes on a budget. Sometimes complete bikes with low use, and in very good condition show up.

You could even get one customized to your needs + painted.

Here is a thread you might enjoy.
https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...d-contest.html

Also, perhaps this thread.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...nk-canvas.html

Oh, and another one.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...-comanche.html

HTupolev

The only major difference between different steels is strength characteristics, such as how far they can bend before suffering permanent damage, and how much force it takes to rend them apart, etc. The reason that chromoly is "lighter" than high-tensile is that, being stronger, it's possible to use less of it in a frame (i.e. thinner tubing walls) without losing strength.

Besides that, there aren't a whole lot of advantages. The chromium in chromoly will make it a bit more corrosion-resistant, although you're likely counteracting that to a substantial extent with thinner-walled tubes; not that it tends to matter either way, rust rarely actually becomes an issue.

Hi-ten doesn't doom a bike to poor ride quality. It depends on the tubeset and construction. Because of the need for thicker walls, you typically have to go narrower to achieve flexibility in the desired areas. The frame will end up heavier, but it should be able to be made to ride as desired.

bradtx

manuelgabriel, How about the main triangle using CrMo and the rear triangle using HiTen. Not as much savings as an all HiTen frame.

Brad

Happy Feet

I own hi ten and chromo bikes and enjoy them both. There isn't some magical ride difference between them other than the fact that hi ten is a little heavier because the tubes are a little thicker. As noted, if we were talking racing bikes it might be different but after throwing 30-40lb's of kit on top, the ride quality will depend more on basic geometry and load distribution.

Having said that, if I were getting a bike custom built and could afford it, I would probably go with the stronger lighter material... bamboo.

saddlesores

what exactly do you want? appears you want a copy of an LHT without
paying the name-brand price. anything special in the measurements or
braze-on bits drastically different from an off-the-rack frame?

if not, there are quite a few factories in china and/or taiwan pumping out
nearly identical frames for about $100. check taobao or alibaba. even
with shipping and a hefty customs duty, you'd still be ahead.

Squeezebox

Ask the frame builders forum for specifics about tubing. Lots of differences in different chromoly tubing. And most companies don't tell you much about what they are using.

robow

I wouldn't want hi-ten steel because of the weight penalty and often the ride is not as compliant but Squeeze is correct, go here to ask your question as I've found these guys really know their stuff

Framebuilders - Bike Forums

fietsbob

not true..


what is a factor is the strength of that alloy of steel is a bit higher so one advantage that can be utilized
is to use less , while staying within the safety margin for strength.

a Cubic solid of any steel will weigh the same if that cube is a consistant equal size in all samples.


one consideration,

High Tensile steel is more Heat error tolerant, in brazing it all together .

To be strong enough for the purpose the tube wall is a Bit thicker ..

It should be fine, if anything breaks it can be patched together by more metal workers with less developed welding skills needed for thin wall tubing
you may find in small Villages.


Typical for the Classic steel touring frames was Bump up the top & down tube diameter

by 1/8" , so.. top 1->1.125", down 1.125->1.25"

wassertreter

I'll stick my neck out and claim you'll get more ride quality by putting the budget towards tyres, particularly on a loaded rig.

Happy Feet

I'd second that.

If you could put the two loaded touring bikes side by side with the same geometry it would be sort of hard to tell which was which. The Chromo would be a little lighter but after loading not that noticable. Unloaded it may.

What is noticable is that higher end, chromo bikes generally have better component parts than Hi ten bikes and people are more willing to invest in them. That could give the sense of a better ride. Better saddle, better wheels/tires nicer finish etc... but you can do that with Hi ten too.





And sometimes the value of a bike is more intangible than just the material it is made of.

veganbikes

I can't imagine that a famous frame builder would be working in hi-ten and be so cheap for a full on touring frame with all the braze ons and such. It just doesn't quite make sense.

veganbikes

Sure if you can find a thin walled Hi-Ten bike maybe it might have a touch better ride but all the Hi-Ten bikes I have ridden just don't ride well. They are certainly heavy but have a dead quality to them that I haven't seen on more quality steels. Some chromo is not great quality and may not give as good of a ride but generally the nicer steels are a better ride at less weight and potentially more durability ATMO.

Happy Feet

All in the eye of the beholder I guess. Personally I would love to have a 50-60's era Raleigh Clubman touring bike. It would be made of low quality steel by comparison I suppose but the character would be what I am looking for.

Sometimes I think about the "ultimate" type bike but the truth is I love all kinds of bikes and would get kinda bored if I had to choose just one. Part of that love is performance, part is application and part is character.. and Hi ten definitely places a role in that category. I also love wrenching and, unless one has deep pockets, limiting oneself to expensive bikes and components would lead to far fewer opportunities to enjoy that aspect of the hobby.

All that being said, if I were going through the trouble of having a person custom build a frame I would probably choose Chromo because it is a better grade of steel. That bike would probably be something I had thought about and designed to have all the features I want and I would probably keep it for a while so spending a little more would be worth it. It wouldn't be because Hi ten had something "wrong" with it. To work with a Hi ten platform there are already so many inexpensive choices available it seems like a strange exercise to build a completely new bike out of it. That being said, I don't know what I would really like on a custom built frame that I can't get on a production model besides some extra cage mounts (which seems somewhat obsolete now that I have and like a frame bag). I could get more mounts on the fork but then again I could also just buy a production fork that already has them.

Manuelgabriel, curious what you want on a custom model that pointed you towards that choice?

bulldog1935

I vote with the tires group here. You can improve any bike with quality wheels and tires.
People still hunt out old Raleigh Grand Prix to build into touring bikes.

wassertreter

Sorry for OT but how do you like the rear rack? I'm thinking of using the same for my vintage tourer conversion, but it's a bit confusing because there seem to be different versions.

This one has a lower rail for hanging the panniers (like yours?): https://www.flickr.com/photos/138654...5/24046644216/

This one has the double rails on the bottom: https://www.bikeforums.net/13983133-post3.html

Single top rail, different bottom: https://www.bikemania.biz/media/catal...itto_18643.jpg

And the minimalist MT-Campee.

bulldog1935

it's the best - sits way behind your heel in your pedal stroke, has lower rails for pannier attachment.
I don't know if there are any in stock in the country right now, but Ben's will order them for you.

manuelgabriel

Great suggestion. I'm going to ask the frame builder if he can do this. Thanks a lot

manuelgabriel

That's the plan. Spend less on the frame and put most of my money in buying good components and wheels