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Old 12-18-18, 12:23 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK

Edit:
Thinking about this... SMART CARDS. Lockers are normally locked which prevents animals and people from using them as mini-storage or sleeping in them long-term. And, one can monitor who has access, when, and how much the lockers are being used. If networked, one could even know where empty lockers are.

There is also cell phone blue-tooth access. However, power is often an issue for long distance tourists. In fact, providing electricity and USB inside of the lockers would be a nice touch.
Smart cards are a good idea to control access. In a campsite what are you controlling access to? Washrooms? Drinking water? Lockers, as noted above? A gate that gives access to a secure campsite? Or maybe you could unlock things with your phone, power points, lockers, etc. Log in with your phone , pay a small fee and have access to power or whatever.
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Old 12-18-18, 12:26 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Ok, so E-Bikes weren't on the top of my list, but why not? It may well be that E-Tourists would be an entirely different breed than the E-Commuters. For example, perhaps picking up a mismatched husband/wife couple, or mobility for the elderly.

I had thought about secure charging for phones and devices, but perhaps the better option is simply to put in coin operated phone booths. Pony Express?

Do we wish to support Electric vehicles... at least someday? So, perhaps allow them to charge while owners are off to the beach or having lunch in a park?
Talking to a friend, they had a good trip in europe, because his wife, who has some mobility issues, was able to keep up with an e-bike. E-bike charging is a good thing.
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Old 12-18-18, 01:50 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by willibrord
Smart cards are a good idea to control access. In a campsite what are you controlling access to? Washrooms? Drinking water? Lockers, as noted above? A gate that gives access to a secure campsite? Or maybe you could unlock things with your phone, power points, lockers, etc. Log in with your phone , pay a small fee and have access to power or whatever.
I'd rather not lock restrooms and water fountains. But, I suppose one could use smart cards for showers.

My first thought was very low key camping, allowing access to bike camping in small roadside parks (a car can drive 50 miles to the next campground, but bikes really would benefit with greater camping access).

Frankly, I rarely shower when camping. All I want is a place to pitch the tent and a restroom as needed. Electricity is a nice bonus.

Then the thought of lockers, both for camping, and simply using the parks and beaches. Bike lockers would be nice so one can deal with gear securely rather than simply using padlocks and bike racks.

Padlocks on the lockers, yes, but people crack padlocks. And, then there are the abandoned locks, or people using the lockers not for the intended purpose (so the state parks dept would have to crack them).

So, then the idea of smart lockers. One pre-registers, pays camp/access fees (hopefully minimal), and gains access. One can track them. No worrying about use other than touring, etc. Not even needing to carry locks. Who tours without room for a credit card?

Cell Phone Blue-Tooth lockers are the hottest thing, but that requires a functional cell phone (and no leaving the cell phone to charge). On the other hand, a smart card is easy to deal with.

There has been an emphasis on making smarter driver's licenses. So, perhaps one could have an option to use a smart driver's license or a state issued access card.

Ideally everything would be networked so cyclists would know where available lockers were, and the parks department could monitor that they aren't suffering from overcrowding too frequently. Even electronic check-in to camp sites.
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Old 12-18-18, 01:53 AM
  #79  
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I know... pie in the sky!!!

But, why not just do it right. And, say upgrading 50 parks, campgrounds, and waysides for bicycle access would be one of the cheapest things that could be done.
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Old 12-18-18, 10:05 AM
  #80  
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Campgrounds every 50 miles or so is a very good idea. A space for your tent, picnic table, simple washrooms are the essentials. Using some kind of electronic system to book and monitor each space would be entirely feasible. I favor a phone based system as everybody has a smart phone and it makes it unnecessary to carry a card and you don't have to go someplace to get it.

I'm not sure about lockers. Good idea in theory but might be vandalized in remote locations where there is nobody to see what is going on. Miscreants would know that there is something valuable inside and nobody around to stop them from breaking in.

Power points for ebikes and electronic gadgetry could be supplied with solar panel arrays. You would need to be registred at that campsite to access them.

Depending on your tourism goals, you could make it cheaper for in state residents, or american citizens, who already supporting the project with their tax revenues, or impose a small tax for those who use fossil fuels to access the trail system.

So many good ideas, thank you Clifford
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Old 12-18-18, 10:35 AM
  #81  
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Solar panels aren't going to last a week in a public area. Look at almost any flat surface and what do you see today? Graffiti. If someone doen't paint it then someone else will destroy it.

And again enough with your political agenda. Oregon should be happy to welcome tourist eco friendly and fossil burning one alike. .The next time I will be traveling to Portland in is going to be on a huge fossil fuel guzzling / carbon spewing jet. As will the vast majority of tourists.
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Old 12-18-18, 01:04 PM
  #82  
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Many of the parks already have electricity in the restrooms (lights & water). Solar panels would augment the existing power. Of course, they could help in less improved road sidings.

I can't say how long solar panels would last. There are traffic signs, both portable and fixed using solar panels that seem to not be vandalized, stolen, or shot. We do get grafitti, but to a large extent it is limited to already painted surfaces. One can clean painted graffiti off of glass. Scratched graffiti could be more problematic. A question might be where one is planning to mount the solar panels. One could mount them on a pole 20 feet in the air, but the coast can get some wicked storms. Mounting them on an outbuilding roof would be more secure as long as angles and sun is right.

Small wind turbines would also be viable.

Even if one wishes to be "Green", one could offset the power of grid attached facilities with a solar or wind installation almost anywhere, and post a sign about the power offset program.

I don't know about vandalism. It happens some places, not others.

I would design any lockers to be reasonably secure. It is a tall order.

I actually bought a retired bike locker from the local recycler. Made of fiberglass. You'd only get one shot at it, but if one saw a $10K bike going in, one could likely break it in seconds.

My thoughts were to make the lockers stronger than the WWII Pill Boxes. The door would still be susceptible to an angle grinder attack, but it would be a major endeavor to open one.

Also the reason for going with a no padlock policy.

They'd be kept normally locked, with the way to determine if something is inside by using an active key.

The tricky part would be to determine the number of lockers. 4? 10? (each capable of holding 2 or 3 loaded bikes). Obviously varying by location & cyclist appeal.

Oh, and the lockers would also double as bear boxes for overnight campers.

I need to research the coastal hiking trail, but something similar could be offered for hikers (backpack size lockers in places where hikers and cyclists intersect).

The relationship between cyclists or other sports enthusiasts and the general population can be fickle. I think there is broad support, but there is likely someone who would think it is funny to make cycling facilities inoperable just to spite cyclists. Building a sand castle out of a bike locker?
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Old 12-18-18, 01:56 PM
  #83  
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Solar power arrays would only be necessary in places that don't have grid access, obviously. If you are putting cyclists campgrounds in rural and remote areas along the coast, there may well be places where there is no electricity grid. I see these small arrays all over the place, they are used to power traffic sign and telemetry units for remote weather stations, things like that. You could protect against graffiti and other anti-social actions by having cams that record people interfacing with the infrastructure. When you register for your permit you would send a picture and face recognition technology could be utilized to see whether you are allowed to be at that campsite at that time. So many possibilities.

I understand your reasoning for lockers, but it seems to me they are turning into bunkers. Do we really need that? Some campgrounds do have food lockers to keep animals out. I suppose you could adapt those to bike lockers, but I think they are much more likely to be tampered with if people think there is a bicycle inside rather than pasta and pop tarts.
I think it would be better to have a secure bike parking rack where cycles could be secured with your choice of lock.
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Old 12-18-18, 02:21 PM
  #84  
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The reason for lockers is so that one can park one's bike and all one's belongings, then head down to the beach like everyone else likes to do without concern of theft.

Somehow I think campgrounds are slightly more secure than waysides.

It would be an interesting thought to do waysides without pullouts. Just a sign and a trail down to a clearing, and then down to the beach or point of interest.

What would support vehicles need? Vacuum trucks? Perhaps enough room for a single vehicle to pull out (with a no parking sign).

Pack it in, Pack it OUT policy?
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Old 12-18-18, 02:31 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
The reason for lockers is so that one can park one's bike and all one's belongings, then head down to the beach like everyone else likes to do without concern of theft.

Somehow I think campgrounds are slightly more secure than waysides.

It would be an interesting thought to do waysides without pullouts. Just a sign and a trail down to a clearing, and then down to the beach or point of interest.

What would support vehicles need? Vacuum trucks? Perhaps enough room for a single vehicle to pull out (with a no parking sign).

Pack it in, Pack it OUT policy?
I think as soon as you put your bike in the locker somebody would be at it. Why not a secure bicycle parking rack at the beach side where you could keep an eye on it?

What do you mean by a way side and why do you need vacuum trucks?

I do like your ideas.
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Old 12-18-18, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by willibrord
I think as soon as you put your bike in the locker somebody would be at it. Why not a secure bicycle parking rack at the beach side where you could keep an eye on it?

What do you mean by a way side and why do you need vacuum trucks?

I do like your ideas.
Campground or picnic area. Marginally developed. Picnic table, plus a flat bit of ground.

Most sewage trucks use a vacuum tank. I think it is easier to pull a vacuum than to try to use a pump (which also might need some kind of suction anyway).

I suppose by physics, one must get the truck (or pump) within 32 vertical feet of the bottom of the tank.
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Old 12-18-18, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Campground or picnic area. Marginally developed. Picnic table, plus a flat bit of ground.

Most sewage trucks use a vacuum tank. I think it is easier to pull a vacuum than to try to use a pump (which also might need some kind of suction anyway).

I suppose by physics, one must get the truck (or pump) within 32 vertical feet of the bottom of the tank.
Oh I see.
I think composting toilets in the rest rooms would be an environmentally sustainable solution.
I have seen them in various parks and wilderness areas. You do need to have a fan for air circulation as part of the system. This could easily be powered by solar. They need to be attended to periodically, but definitely not every day, I think it is every few weeks. Also don't require running water if that is an issue and would be perfect for small wayside micro campgrounds as suitable for bicycle camping.
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Old 12-18-18, 06:51 PM
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A lot of the coast parks and picnic areas already have restrooms, electricity, and running water.

If it is running water, they must have at least a septic and large drainfield. They may periodically pump the septic tank, but they would have to have a drainfield to get rid of liquids. It would be reasonably cheap to say pull a water and sewage connection say 1/4 mile away to a new micro campground. Lift pumps can be very functional for sewage.

Make the bike campground close enough to be connected, but far enough away to have some isolation, and perhaps avoid questions about why cyclists can camp but drivers can't.

I suppose before building new campgrounds, one should see what actually is available.

I'm happy enough to go super primitive, but also sensitive to human waste issues.

Time to get those generator wheels built that I've been procrastinating about!!! No need for electrical hookups.

Oh, as far as putting bikes in view. It may work in some cases, but I usually walk a mile or so when on the beach, and may not be paying attention to a bike rack when exploring a rocky beach.
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Old 12-18-18, 10:09 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
A lot of the coast parks and picnic areas already have restrooms, electricity, and running water.

If it is running water, they must have at least a septic and large drainfield. They may periodically pump the septic tank, but they would have to have a drainfield to get rid of liquids. It would be reasonably cheap to say pull a water and sewage connection say 1/4 mile away to a new micro campground. Lift pumps can be very functional for sewage.

Make the bike campground close enough to be connected, but far enough away to have some isolation, and perhaps avoid questions about why cyclists can camp but drivers can't.

I suppose before building new campgrounds, one should see what actually is available.

I'm happy enough to go super primitive, but also sensitive to human waste issues.

Time to get those generator wheels built that I've been procrastinating about!!! No need for electrical hookups.

Oh, as far as putting bikes in view. It may work in some cases, but I usually walk a mile or so when on the beach, and may not be paying attention to a bike rack when exploring a rocky beach.
It only makes sense to use existing infrastructure as much as possible. In places where that infrastructure doesn't exist, new developments should be sustainable and carbon neutral, taking advantage of green technologies and also using modern IT and communication tech to monitor trailside facilities for maintenance and security purposes.
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Old 12-20-18, 07:49 AM
  #90  
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QUOTE=tcs;20705709]Tunneling is expensive, even with modern TBMs.

Wondering: what's the smallest dimension bike/pedestrian tunnel you'd feel comfortable riding through?

[/QUOTE]
I can tell you that a 4 meter wide and 2+ meter high is plenty of space. They are currently reconstructing the Maastunnel in Rotterdam with it's bicycle tunnel; Maastunnel Rotterdam - BicycleDutch


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Old 12-20-18, 06:42 PM
  #91  
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I always thought the road around Humbug Mountain could use improvement.... south of Port Orford. Remember it as always narrow and broken up from trucks.
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Old 12-23-18, 09:25 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
I noted in NL use of a lot of interlocking brick paving stones , , rather than Bitumen,
but they had to be heated to high temperature, to fuse them , somehow in a brick kiln..

Making cement, cooking limestone, turns out be a huge source of the Carbon that is altering the atmosphere..

we are the problem.. our extinction may be the solution..
Grow more trees and flowers and grass (the kind you mow)...
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Old 12-24-18, 03:55 AM
  #93  
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I've been trying to figure out the difference between I-84 where Oregon has put a bike path, and HWY-101 where the state has not put a bike path. Both have significant rural aspects, and tourist appeal.

Of course, the big difference is the "I" which means super wide shoulders.

What the state has done is create a route that uses secondary roads, then added a bike path whenever there simply is no alternative to riding on the freeway. It technically should be legal to ride on the freeway, except for downtown Portland.

Of course, another difference is that much of the cycling infrastructure along I-84 is relatively cheap. No steep cliffs. It can hop across the freeway under existing bridges.

In fact, much of the bike path follows the old Columbia HWY from before the freeway. This should make rebuilding the road easier, including perhaps property ownership, and existing infrastructure including bridges and tunnels.

There is one vehicle tunnel that the freeway goes through, and I think the bike path goes up a little, crosses above the freeway, then swings around the mountain.

Can this be applied to the coast? I don't know. For the most part is no "old highway". There would be severe challenges to build a bike path parallel to some of the more dangerous sections of the highway.

And, to some, changing the hills above the ocean could be considered sacrilege.
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Old 01-01-19, 05:07 PM
  #94  
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101 has some pretty wide shoulders .. Clatsop County.. until parts where cutting 2 lanes was difficult Del Norte county just across the Cal border has some..



Ate you sending these items to the ODOT staff person , linked Above? or just posting here?






.....

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Old 01-01-19, 05:40 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
101 has some pretty wide shoulders .. Clatsop County.. until parts where cutting 2 lanes was difficult Del Norte county just across the Cal border has some..



Ate you sending these items to the ODOT staff person , linked Above? or just posting here?

.....
That is the problem with many of these roads. The McKenzie HWY is similar. Wide in places where the road is straight with good visibility.

Narrow where the road is curvy with poor visibility, and perhaps distracted drivers looking at the scenery.

It is also one of the reasons why I think one would be better off cutting a new path. Easy to do in flatter sections, and just as easy to do as widening 101 in the steeper sections.

I'm going to try to plan some exploring this spring and summer, both of the coast and the I-84 corridor. Already starting to organize a touring bike capable of doing 1000 miles or so in 10 days or so.

When driving I-84 a few days ago, I noticed that near one of the tunnels, it appeared as if the bike route simply climbed the hill, crossed over above the freeway, and circled the mountain. Climbing is tough on cyclists, but they aren't as restricted to going straight ahead as cars seem to like to do.

I haven't ridden more than about 30 miles of the coast route, although over the years, driven much of it, but not necessarily considering it as a bike route.

I don't consider the current route as "Family Friendly", and making some VERY MAJOR improvements could increase the use significantly.

I've been posting here, but trying to consolidate my thoughts, and will be sending a note to Jenna & Jenna listed on the web page in the next few days. Perhaps also with a link back here. I had a note written, but think I'll try to start with more concise thoughts, hopefully we can open a two-way conversation.
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Old 01-01-19, 08:41 PM
  #96  
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Yea , US 30. Just East of Astoria gets windy & w/o shoulders ..

Interstate system was also about Rapid Troop Deployment , Domestically ..

Here , they's Use Use River ..
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Old 01-02-19, 08:47 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Th

When driving I-84 a few days ago, I noticed that near one of the tunnels, it appeared as if the bike route simply climbed the hill, crossed over above the freeway, and circled the mountain. Climbing is tough on cyclists, but they aren't as restricted to going straight ahead as cars seem to like to do.
Where on I84 was that?

When riding the California Coast my buddy and I pondered more than once (kidding of course) Why they just coudn't build a bridge from one crest of the hill to the other.
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Old 01-02-19, 08:49 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
101 has some pretty wide shoulders .. Clatsop County.. until parts where cutting 2 lanes was difficult Del Norte county just across the Cal border has some..



Ate you sending these items to the ODOT staff person , linked Above? or just posting here?






.....
Please contact the staff. I have had more than one contact with a couple of them. They are very nice, helpful and very interested in input. I told the one woman about this thread but you can't be sure if they are checking in.
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Old 01-03-19, 05:51 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by spinnaker
Originally Posted by CliffordK
When driving I-84 a few days ago, I noticed that near one of the tunnels, it appeared as if the bike route simply climbed the hill, crossed over above the freeway, and circled the mountain. Climbing is tough on cyclists, but they aren't as restricted to going straight ahead as cars seem to like to do.
Where on I84 was that?
Ahhh, found it, I think.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6380.../data=!3m1!1e3

Toothrock Tunnel.

And, as I had surmised, the trail does, in fact, cross above the tunnel.

It looks like the tunnel has a bit of unique history.

https://sos.oregon.gov/archives/exhi...n-tunnels.aspx

So, I think the eastbound lanes of I-84 goes through the tunnel originally built in 1937 long before the freeway.

The westbound lanes go over a bridge around the rock protrusion.

And the trail skirts around it.

The point is that any mountain along HWY 101 will end somewhere west of the road. A tunnel might be convenient for road construction, but might not be necessary for trail construction.
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Old 01-03-19, 03:55 PM
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Interesting. That section shows almost as flat on ridewithgps. I guess you are already
above the interstate there?
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