klaasvh

Hi all,

I've been restoring this Peugeot PH10 but I'm having some issues fitting DT shifters. The frame actually came without any shifters when I got it, but the original would probably have been Simplex SJ type shifters like these velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?id=20f57ef0-3c01-4fc3-ad8c-e60adb557c77 (Sorry, can't post any links yet)

I found some Sachs Huret clamp on shifters that fit the braze on bosses nicely. The only problem is the thread appers to be different. Any idea what I'm dealing with here?

Klaas

verktyg 

Simplex used obsolete, bātard 5mm x 1mm French size shift lever screws for their braze on mounts well into the 1980's. Most modern levers use 5mm x .8mm ISO standard threads.

5mm x .8mm ISO standard screw on the right. Bātard 5mm x 1mm French screw on the left. Notice the large difference in the thread pitch.



Simplex SJ levers used on many Peugeots during the early 1980's. Very ugly in my opinion.



Simplex 599P Braze-on boss with 5mm x 1mm threads.




Here's one solution (if you have access to US inch threaded screws). Use a US 10-24 Machine Screw available in stainless steel with a socket head or button head.



I did this to mount Simplex Retrofriction levers on my 1983 Peugeot PSV10.



Another solution, older Huret levers from the 1970's used 5mm x 1mm mounting screws too. Get a set of those levers with a clamp mount and cannibalize the screws from them.



Don't take the advice from any ham fisted hammer mechanic (swantzkopf) to retap the 5mm x 1mm threads with a 5mm x .8mm tap. The mounting screws will have very little thread contact and they will be constantly coming loose.

Hope this helps.

verktyg

klaasvh

Hi verktyg,

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. My French isn't that great but I can guess what B tard means Anyway, this build was going far too easy so far. Its about time something typical French got in my way, especially if you consider that the bottle cage holders are your usual M5 .

Off to find me some donor levers I guess.

Klaas

Schlafen

Hi verktyg , digging up an old thread, I know, I know...

Hoping for some help regarding my current build, but before that I have to thank you for sharing priceless information regarding the downtube bosses. The French peculiarities should be documented and stickied somewhere.
I tried the screws that came with my downtube shifter and a standard metric M5 screw and it didn't thread in, I figured it's most likely some esoteric French sized thread, took it to google and came across your reply above. M5x1.0 screws are blisteringly expensive at £30.00/pair (ridiculous ebay prices) but having new bosses brazed on would be even more expensive.

I'm currently building one of these PSV10's and my frame came without the seatpost. I've measured the bore and I'm getting 2 dimensions depending on where I measure. The cause for that is the slightly ovalised hole (the slit is narrower at the top than it is at the bottom). If the PSV10 above is still part of your stable, I would very much appreciate it if you could check the seatpost size.

Cheers

oneclick 

Wedge something in the slot to make it the same width all along, then measure.
(You want the slot the right size anyway.)

1simplexnut

My Vitus 980 Peugeot frames have 26.4mm seat posts

Dont forget to post pics of your build !

esasjl

I have to fess up to doing this. Seems to work OK for me but point taken. I guess an M5 helicoil could be installed to update both clamps and bosses?

Feldman

Drill out and helicoil! There are 5 x .8mm thread repair kits that are handy to have.

dddd

I used 10-24 screws with blue Loctite back in the early 2000's (in a Huret band clamp for my Six-Ten), and it worked flawlessly for some years of hard on- and off-road riding.
I didn't torque the screws all that hard since the lever itself was indexed, and so needed no friction clamping to work properly.

John E

When I put stem shifters on the UO-8 frame for my wife, I simply chiseled off the single shift lever boss and covered the scar with a double cable stop.

A previous owner of my son's PKN-10 had already chiseled off the shift lever bosses and covered the scars with a Campagnolo clamp-on boss, which worked nicely with my SunTour levers.

Schlafen

Thanks for the info 1simplexnut , I may start a thread at some point.

dddd , UNC #10-24 screws seem like a very good alternative, thread pitch is 1.058mm, which should be negligible for this application.

The downtube bosses on my frame are in perfect working order, Retap, helicoil or completely removing the bosses seems like a bodge, as the (period) correct screws are availble.

Lke everyone else on here, I have overpaid for bike parts before, £30 is not the end of the world, considering some of the alternatives suggested require permanent alterations.

verktyg 

First off, I'm glad that I never had to deal with hammersmiths working for me! hahaha 40+ years working in ALL phases of threaded fasteners... Not meant to hurt anyone's feeling but... When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras! In other words look for the simplest, most scientifically elegant, and most economical solution first...



I recently updated this chart because I found some Huret shift lever bands that used truly bātard size 5mm x 0.9mm threads besides what I posted before about Huret 5mm x 1.0mm threads (bātard = bastard in French as in bastard size threads)

Looking through my collection of taps I found that I had 5mm x 0.8mm, 5mm x 0.9mm and 5mm x 1.0mm size taps.



Thanks, I'm glad to help... See dddd's and my solution:

BINGO! In the US 10-24 size fasteners are called "Screw Machine" screws, nuts or bolts or just "Machine Screws" regardless of the head style - Slotted, Phillips, Hex or Socket Head. This was the "Industry Standard" developed in the US in the 1920s for fasteners under 1/4" diameter. The sizes range from #0 to #12 in coarse and fine pitch threads.These sizes of fasteners are slowly becoming obsolete with the adoption of ISO Metric Standard sized fasteners in the US.

10-24 Fastener = 0.190" Thread Diameter and has 24 Threads Per Inch Pitch (0.0417") or in metric, 4.826mm x 1.0583mm Pitch

5mm x 1.0mm = 5mm Thread Diameter with a 1.0mm Thread Pitch, 0.197" x 0.0394"

This is a "Force Fit" semi hammersmith fix for a bātard problem - 10-24 Screws are slightly smaller diameter but the Thread Pitch is coarser than a 5mm x 1.0mm screw but it will work fine with blue Loctite.

Lets see... Reinvention of the wheel!

$10 to $30+ for Helicoil Kit. 15 to 30 minutes to drill out and tap the threads, hoping the drill or tap doesn't break... or less than a $1 for some 10-24 Stainless Button Head Cap Screws - 1 minute to install???

ALSO NOTE, trying to retap chrome plated threads in clamps will tear up a tap in short order, especially easy to find carbon steel hardware store taps.

£30 is a better solution than buying a few 10-24 screws? They may or may not be available in the UK. If not PM me and I'll send you a few.

From my original message: "Don't take the advice from any ham fisted hammer mechanic (swantzkopf) to retap the 5mm x 1mm threads with a 5mm x .8mm tap. The mounting screws will have very little thread contact and they will be constantly coming loose."

verktyg

esasjl

Very useful advice and info, appreciated. I think these would work.

Schlafen

verktyg thanks for your input. I've ordered the screws last winter off ebay from a UK seller, they're supposed to be genuine Simplex screws as well, although I can't see any branding on them.

As far as ordering #10-24 stainless steel machine screws in UK, would have been around £15 with the min. order qty., postage etc.

Ordering the correct screws was the better option in my case. However, #10-24 screws are a very good alternative, next in line if M5x1.0 screws were not available.

My post above was mainly addressing seatpost diameter.

verktyg 

Less than brief answer to all of (or at least some of) your French seatpost diameter questions. These specs in general apply to better quality PRODUCTION bikes with alloy steel frames. (Scroll down to Now the Reality for the reasons for most of these issues and problems)

The most common size seatposts for most better quality French bikes from the late 1960's to the early 1980's was 26.4mm diameter.

Why? Metric seat tubes = 28mm OD. The majority of Reynolds 531 French production frames used 1.0mm x 0.7mm wall thickness butted tubes. 28mm - 2x 0.7mm wall thickness (1.4mm) = a 26.6mm Internal Diameter with 0.2mm of clearance.

This also included Spanish Zeus, some Belgian, Swiss and other European bikes made with metric diameter tubes. Some high end Stellas and a few other French brands used heavier gauge Columbus SP tubes that also had 1.0mm x 0.7mm wall thickness tubes.

Peugeot, Motobecane, Gitane and other French makers used lighter gauge Reynolds 531, Super Vitus 971 (see note below about SV 980 and SV 983) and Columbus SL tubing on some of their top performance models. They had seat tubes with a 0.9mm x 0.6mm wall thickness and "should" have had 26.6mm seatposts.

A few top "Pro" Peugeots, Gitanes and other marques were made with Reynolds 531SL "Super Legere" tubing later known a 531P or Professional and also metric Reynolds 753. Those seat tubes had a wall thickness of 0.8mm x 0.5mm thick. A 26.8mm seat post would be the proper size.




Most specs for Super Vitus 980 list it as having a 0.9mm x 0.6mm wall thickness... But it was also made in a lighter version with a 0.8mm x 0.5mm wall thickness.



My 1983 Peugeot PSV-10 is made of SV 980-1 and takes a 26.6mm seat post. My 1988 Peugeot Biarritz is SV 980-2 and has a 26.8mm seat post. My 1984 Gitane Super Corsa has a SV 983 frame which is supposed to have the same wall thicknesses as SV 971 and SV 98-1 but it takes a 26.8mm seat post and is as light as my 1988 Peugeot Biarritz so I suspect that SV 983 was made in 2 weights like SV 980???

To muddy the water a little more, Butted Durifort and Vitus 172 from the early 70's had main tube wall thicknesses of 1.1mm x 0.75mm and used 26.2mm seatposts. Some Motobecane models from 1977 to about 1983 used butted Vitus 172 and used either 26.2mm or 26.4mm seatposts. Later Durifort and Vitus 172 had straight gauge 0.8mm and 0.9mm main tubes so there are too many variables to list here.

BTW, SV 971 was introduced in 1971, 980 in 1980, 983 in 1983, Vitus 172 in 1972 and Vitus 181 in 1981.

Now the reality... Bike makers, even some of the best rarely sized or properly reamed the seat tubes. When I started assembling my 1980's De Rosa, I was sorely disappointed because the seat tube was out of round. The most frequent use of reamers for many bikes and frames was to clean the paint overspray out of the seat tube so that they could jam in what ever size seatpost would fit in the hole! Proof: how many times have you seen zigzag snake lines on a new seatpost in a new frame or bike???

Worst case scenario ARGH:



Seat lugs were frequently not round from the factory which resulted on out of round seat tubes after brazing. Also the seat tubes inside the lugs frequently bulged from overheating especially when attaching the seat stays.



The Full Monty cure is to begin by rounding out the seat tube lug. At our shop back in the 70's we machined a set of tapered mandrels to do this. Now I use a cheap old steel MTB stem with an aluminum wedge plug so that it doesn't ding up the inside of the tube. A long neck makes a good handle. I start by gently rotating and tightening it to round out the hole, lowering it as I go around. I usually need to clamp onto the seatpost bolt ears to collapse the rear area to a rounder shape.



Once it's close to round, I used my adjustable reamer to smooth and round out the top of the seat tube. Not many folks have a proper reamer but there are a lot of ways around this.



Afterwards I use a brake cylinder hone or brush hone to smooth out the inside of the seat tube and remove any burrs that will cause the zigzag scratches



Last step is to use a small file to make sure there are no burrs left in the seat tube. Note, this is a new frame and the paint overspray was never cleaned out!



One last thing, be careful when spreading the seatpost bolt "ears". I have a very large screwdriver that works perfect. Make sure that you don't contact the seat tube itself which can cause a ding that will scratch your seatpost.

verktyg

verktyg 

Yes, they will work perfect:




I don't remember the length screws that I used but 1/2" or 5/8" might be long enough. Too long of a screw might bottom out on the down tube and pop the brazed or spot welded boss off.


verktyg