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Electric speeders on the local MUP

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Electric speeders on the local MUP

Old 06-24-19, 11:23 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not deviating from the point at all--you were arguing that saying it shouldn't be allowed is somehow irrational. I gave you a rational argument for making its use on the path illegal.

I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
Your insistence to go down this line of questioning the law, given i'd literally win this argument in court, wouldn't be so ridiculous if you'd been as open to question the other side of the story. That being that the other cyclist was travelling at excessive speed on the MUP. But you're not interested in that, because it was someone riding a road bike, and therefore it doesn't fit your agenda.

You're wrong, you're gone. Good day to you, sir.
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Old 06-24-19, 05:10 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not deviating from the point at all--you were arguing that saying it shouldn't be allowed is somehow irrational. I gave you a rational argument for making its use on the path illegal.

I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
Bingo.

Bike paths were created for a reason, and allowing something with a motor to use them essentially negates that reason.
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Old 06-24-19, 06:12 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Bingo.

Bike paths were created for a reason, and allowing something with a motor to use them essentially negates that reason.
Semi-motorized bikes weak enough that in typical real-world operation they fit into existing usage in a way that doesn't stick out are probably okay; those that start to change the path dynamics in a way unfriendly to original unmotorized uses are definitely not.
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Old 06-24-19, 06:19 PM
  #79  
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Somebody scolded me for riding this on the Minuteman. “THOSE AREN’T ALLOWED!”

At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.

Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.

Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”

-mr. bill
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Old 06-24-19, 06:31 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Your insistence to go down this line of questioning the law, given i'd literally win this argument in court, wouldn't be so ridiculous if you'd been as open to question the other side of the story. That being that the other cyclist was travelling at excessive speed on the MUP. But you're not interested in that, because it was someone riding a road bike, and therefore it doesn't fit your agenda.

You're wrong, you're gone. Good day to you, sir.
You set it up as jerk cyclist versus you, I am under no obligation to play along with the false premise. The cyclist was wrong for riding in that manner, and you're wrong for not riding your loophole mobile in the street where it belongs. The two things have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

you can apparently get away with the fake limiter in your jurisdiction. I'm sure there's others where you cannot.
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Old 06-24-19, 06:44 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Somebody scolded me for riding this on the Minuteman. “THOSE AREN’T ALLOWED!”

At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.

Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.

Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”

-mr. bill
I have way fewer problems with people on some of the odd vehicles and even the cross country "skiers" than I do some of the other cyclists. The Strava junkies were going crazy yesterday.

I must say it takes exceptionally bad powers of observation to mistake someone on a kick scooter for a person on an e scooter.
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Old 06-24-19, 07:05 PM
  #82  
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I figure if I invent the rolling resistance trainer I can make millions. Just need to get Strava on-board with the correction factor. Sure, you completed that segment at 12 mph; but what actually matters is that you did it into the equivalent drag of 24 mph!
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Old 06-24-19, 07:19 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I must say it takes exceptionally bad powers of observation to mistake someone on a kick scooter for a person on an e scooter.
Or someone confusing a person on an e-bike with a motorcycle rider.
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Old 06-24-19, 07:46 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Or someone confusing a person on an e-bike with a motorcycle rider.

If he's actually going 52 mph I wouldn't feel too bad. Although some fellow on here claims such capabilities, I remain skeptical.
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Old 06-24-19, 11:55 PM
  #85  
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Why we ride e-bikes

All my e-bike cons in one video. See if you can spot them. BTW, be prepared to turn down the volume during the shrill parts.


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Old 06-25-19, 10:15 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”
What's ironic about it?

And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I have way fewer problems with people on some of the odd vehicles and even the cross country "skiers" than I do some of the other cyclists.
A lot has to do with the volume of traffic, and the infrastructure being used. When areas become crowded with higher volumes of people moving, that is when it's essential to have an orderly flow of traffic. Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations.

A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
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Old 06-25-19, 10:37 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
What's ironic about it?

And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?



A lot has to do with the volume of traffic, and the infrastructure being used. When areas become crowded with higher volumes of people moving, that is when it's essential to have an orderly flow of traffic. Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations.

A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
@mr_bill and I are frequent users of the Minuteman, which is a very, very crowded MUP. Those places where it is most crowded are also the places you're most likely to encounter children, skaters, people with walkers, whatever. If you can't deal with it occasionally becoming "disorderly", you just shouldn't use it.

The reason you announce your pass or ring a bell before passing is so people can give you room to pass or, at least, not suddenly dart in front of you. It's really not a big deal if you have to slow down or even stop a second or two before you can pass safely. It comes with the MUP territory.

I ride empty stretches of MUPs well into the 24 mph range regularly, but I'm always prepared to slow to a crawl when necessary. Almost literally the only time I ever feel my safety threatened on a MUP is when some damn fool cyclist crosses over into my lane because they refuse to slow down to wait for a safe pass.
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Old 06-25-19, 10:54 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
@mr_bill and I are frequent users of the Minuteman, which is a very, very crowded MUP. Those places where it is most crowded are also the places you're most likely to encounter children, skaters, people with walkers, whatever. If you can't deal with it occasionally becoming "disorderly", you just shouldn't use it.
The reason you announce your pass or ring a bell before passing is so people can give you room to pass or, at least, not suddenly dart in front of you. It's really not a big deal if you have to slow down or even stop a second or two before you can pass safely. It comes with the MUP territory.
I ride empty stretches of MUPs well into the 24 mph range regularly, but I'm always prepared to slow to a crawl when necessary. Almost literally the only time I ever feel my safety threatened on a MUP is when some damn fool cyclist crosses over into my lane because they refuse to slow down to wait for a safe pass.
It's not a question of being able to deal with something disorderly, it's about efficiency. Disorderly is not efficient, and inefficient is just an unnecessary waste of people's time and energy.

Ringing a bell to alert someone to move over is inefficient, and it shouldn't be necessary. Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over? No, they don't. Or, at least, they aren't supposed to, and they will be rightly chastised for it.

If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.

You call someone a fool for crossing over into your lane, but what do you call the person that forced them there?
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Old 06-25-19, 10:56 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed?
Absent an audible suggestion that someone is there, very few MUP users of any sort do while underway, unless they're trying to keep track of their group or still have a mirror attached for road segments.

Do you make way for those people?
Responding when someone indicates that they are there is the key part; that said moving over is not always the required response, for example if only a small part of the path at that point is safely traversable (and that part doesn't more rightfully belong to someone approaching in the opposite direction)

Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations... A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
Adults on perfectly ordinary pedal bicycles go anywhere from 8 to 24 mph, probably a bit further to the ultimate outliers on each end, add hills and the spread gets wider still. But MUPs by their definition include people on foot too, at least except in sections where the path is split by use.

Or in the reference to pedal bikes were you criticizing the faster-than-bike segment of the e-toys? While you do occasionally see them going fast, most of those have reasonable speeds within or below the median bike range (at least once the user has experience a wipeout), it's really the electrified bike/motorcycle borderline cases that start falling into the alarming-to-others speed bracket.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 06-25-19, 11:49 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I attempt to ride past someone, and they step 2ft to the side.. i'm passing on.. Why do people do that?!
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
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Old 06-25-19, 12:09 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Both of the times I've been hit while walking by grossly incompetent cyclists... they rode straight into me while making eye contact
This could be "target fixation." I learned about this in motorcycle training: when you panic, you tend to look at the thing you might hit, and your body naturally steers where you are looking. To avoid it, you learn to "look where you want to go" and do _not_ look at the thing you're worried about hitting.
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Old 06-25-19, 12:34 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by specialgreen View Post
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
Correction: there is no perfect solution. (For example, a red light ALWAYS means stop. But people still frequently cruise through them into the crosswalk to make a right-hand turn).

Nevertheless, you can't overwrite the law with your expectation. No matter how logical they may appear to you. A bell approach warning is required by law in many jurisdictions.
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Old 06-25-19, 12:35 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
It's not a question of being able to deal with something disorderly, it's about efficiency. Disorderly is not efficient, and inefficient is just an unnecessary waste of people's time and energy.

Ringing a bell to alert someone to move over is inefficient, and it shouldn't be necessary. Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over? No, they don't. Or, at least, they aren't supposed to, and they will be rightly chastised for it.

If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.

You call someone a fool for crossing over into your lane, but what do you call the person that forced them there?
Last part first--no one "forced" them there. If a slower bike or pedestrian is ahead of them, it is the passer's responsibility to wait until I have passed going the other way before the passer can enter my lane. Your assertions about responsibility and announcing passes are contrary to the laws in the states in which I ride.

"Efficient" most definitely does not mean that the fastest riders get to ride fast all of the time. That's absurd. That leaves out the MU in MUP. Efficiency encompasses allowing a great number of participants in several different activities to do so safely and in a manner that maximizes the flow for the entire population of the path, not just the elite fast cyclists. Where I ride, the pedestrian legally always has the right of way and as a fast rider, I have to negotiate with that. The MUP is not at all efficient for fast riding, I think it's actually part of its charm. I've grown very adept at rapid acceleration from riding on MUPs. It's an extremely useful skill. I love to be able to ride at 24 mph, drop quickly to 5 mph then return to 24 all in a matter of a half mile or so. It's a fantastic workout, much better than I'd get going constant at 24 the entire distance.

I cannot think of a more inept analogy for the MUP than the autobahn. I really have no idea why you would even think to make that comparison. You show me a European highway where some of the drivers are 5 years old, and then I might concede you have a point.
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Old 06-25-19, 12:38 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by specialgreen View Post
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
I've got to say it again--I say "passing on your left" and what you're describing almost never happens to me.
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Old 06-25-19, 01:35 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over?
Do people routinely cruise German highways riding side-by-side while chatting with their friends in another lane? I'm sure it's happened but it's atypical. More typical, they're chatting with their friend in the other seat.

Yet that's the most common reason to need to ask someone to move over on a MUP. Like it or not, MUPs are typically managed and funded as recreation infrastructure moreso than transit infrastructure, and things like being able to ride or walk two abreast is part of the appeal to many users - that's clear even as someone whose own 95% usage of them is solo.

(A lot of drivers in the US do however seem to consider habitually cruising in the left highway lane reasonable; kind of bothers me to be a passenger of someone doing this, but tends to be not worth commenting)

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Old 06-25-19, 01:36 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.
GET OFF MY ROAD! GET OFF MY MUP! GET OFF MY SIDEWALK! GET OUT OF MY WAY!

ALL YOUR SPACE BELONG TO US!

-mr. bill
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Old 06-25-19, 01:40 PM
  #97  
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What is *PARTICULARLY* ironic, this is yet another if you are faster get out of my way thread.
Which has morphed if you are faster, if you are slower, get out of my way.

Nah, it's just get out of my way.

-mr. bill

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Old 06-25-19, 03:03 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Or in the reference to pedal bikes were you criticizing the faster-than-bike segment of the e-toys? While you do occasionally see them going fast, most of those have reasonable speeds within or below the median bike range (at least once the user has experience a wipeout), it's really the electrified bike/motorcycle borderline cases that start falling into the alarming-to-others speed bracket.
Where I am located, you regularly have e-bikes, e-scooters and e-skateboards in the bike lanes and going 20mph plus (if they are actually traveling with the flow of traffic. They usually slow down slightly when they ride the wrong way, which happens all the time).

Originally Posted by specialgreen View Post
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
This is true. This is why I don't say anything to people that leave enough space to pass easily and quickly.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
"Efficient" most definitely does not mean that the fastest riders get to ride fast all of the time. That's absurd. That leaves out the MU in MUP. Efficiency encompasses allowing a great number of participants in several different activities to do so safely and in a manner that maximizes the flow for the entire population of the path, not just the elite fast cyclists. Where I ride, the pedestrian legally always has the right of way and as a fast rider, I have to negotiate with that. The MUP is not at all efficient for fast riding, I think it's actually part of its charm. I've grown very adept at rapid acceleration from riding on MUPs. It's an extremely useful skill. I love to be able to ride at 24 mph, drop quickly to 5 mph then return to 24 all in a matter of a half mile or so. It's a fantastic workout, much better than I'd get going constant at 24 the entire distance.

I cannot think of a more inept analogy for the MUP than the autobahn. I really have no idea why you would even think to make that comparison. You show me a European highway where some of the drivers are 5 years old, and then I might concede you have a point.
Nobody is saying that the MUP should be setup to allow elite cyclist to ride at full speed. I'm simply stating that if it would operate efficiently, it would allow faster movers (be then on a bike, just running, walking...) to make mostly unimpeded progress. If you are blocking someone faster than you for no good reason, other than your lack of attention or courtesy, that is inefficient and unnecessary. Wanting to move past those people doesn't make one selfish, it just makes those reducing efficiency selfish.

Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
More typical, they're chatting with their friend in the other seat.
Yet that's the most common reason to need to ask someone to move over on a MUP. Like it or not, MUPs are typically managed and funded as recreation infrastructure moreso than transit infrastructure, and things like being able to ride or walk two abreast is part of the appeal to many users - that's clear even as someone whose own 95% usage of them is solo.
Yes, this happens all the time, but it doesn't have to be this way. When I ride on a path with my GF, she is riding a 1960's cruiser, so suffice to say we aren't going very fast. And yet I always check well behind us before pulling up next to her to talk, and constantly check for people approaching. It really isn't hard to do, and yet most people can't be bothered because they are selfish.

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
GET OFF MY ROAD! GET OFF MY MUP! GET OFF MY SIDEWALK! GET OUT OF MY WAY!

ALL YOUR SPACE BELONG TO US!

-mr. bill
You realize that your arguments are along those exact lines, no? Advocating for the most efficient use of a shared path is beneficial to everyone, no? Inefficient use implies that someone is operating in a way that puts their own needs ahead of those of the other users, no?
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Old 06-25-19, 03:20 PM
  #99  
UniChris
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
When I ride on a path with my GF, she is riding a 1960's cruiser, so suffice to say we aren't going very fast. And yet I always check well behind us before pulling up next to her to talk, and constantly check for people approaching. It really isn't hard to do, and yet most people can't be bothered because they are selfish.
How is someone who is going a fairly median speed for the path being selfish?

Seems "selifish" is more the person in a well above median speed bracket, who wants everyone else to run mirrors or a swivel head to anticipate their need, rather than have the courtesy to request accommodation.

Advocating for the most efficient use of a shared path is beneficial to everyone, no?
Efficient for the optimization of what variable? A bike highway would be a really interesting idea, but it's not, by the very definition, what a MUP is meant to be.

If you look at the enjoyment across the range of officially endorsed users, even limiting that to just bikes and walking, optimizing for fast cycling isn't really defensible. I've seen MUPs with 10 mph speed limits; even I find that low, and suspect it was enacted out of frustration with those doing more than twice that in close proximity to people walking. Our greenway just gained a hilly and itself contentious mandatory bike detour around a busy riverside area that had long been a point of mode conflict; and not just a peak summer hours detour, an 11 pm in snowy December one.

Inefficient use implies that someone is operating in a way that puts their own needs ahead of those of the other users, no?
That's exactly the problem with those going faster than the usual expecting everyone else to proactively accommodate the mere possibility of their presence, rather than react to their courteous (and in places, legally required) requests for accommodation.

I get it; having to ask someone to move every couple of minutes must be annoying. But so would be looking behind you every 20 seconds while taking a casual walk with your friend or family. And there's no small irony, in that it's the exact some annoyance drivers have with cyclists taking the lane.

Jogging along oblivious in your own little headphone isolated world with dog leash across the full trail? Yes, that's selfish. Bombing through without giving others any time to react to your announcements? That too.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 06-25-19, 03:38 PM
  #100  
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Wow. Just wow.

Anyhow, e-Bike = Vroom vroom!

Oops, off brand.

-mr. bill
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