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2015 PanAm velodrome update

Old 02-15-15, 05:39 PM
  #226  
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A word on etiquette: Ask the person before taking it upon yourself to use their equipment/pump/rollers in the infield. I don't want to come off the track to cool down and find someone I don't know riding on my rollers!
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Old 02-16-15, 02:01 AM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by nspace View Post
A word on etiquette: Ask the person before taking it upon yourself to use their equipment/pump/rollers in the infield. I don't want to come off the track to cool down and find someone I don't know riding on my rollers!

This happens a lot, but in my experience people are VERY quick to get off when you come back and need to unwind. Can work in everyone's favour - i've 'borrowed' rollers when i need to be at the start, but want to keep my legs turning without hauling them up and down..
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Old 02-17-15, 01:41 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Ha ha. Yeah, I noticed I wasn't the first to make a mark.
And not the last:

Lucky to get up and walk away from that. Watching it, it seems so strange how chill the people are around him while he is laying there on the concrete.
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Old 02-17-15, 02:34 PM
  #229  
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Old 02-17-15, 08:16 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by nspace View Post
And not the last:

Lucky to get up and walk away from that. Watching it, it seems so strange how chill the people are around him while he is laying there on the concrete.
Panic helps nobody. As a former paramedic, having only the people there that can help is the best thing. It's not as if an eternity was taken to get to the rider, and any responder first has to deem it safe to respond before attending. Seems to have been handled well in my opinion.
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Old 02-17-15, 08:28 PM
  #231  
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And it's preventable crashes like this that will keep me away from Milton for the first year. I'm not local to the venue anymore, so it doesn't really matter, but when you have this many new people, who's fitness and confidence exceeds their ability, this is the sort of thing that happens. You have an O-Cup event a month after the velodrome opens and 90% of the field's track experience is solely that month it's been open. I know that with the Pan-Ams coming up so quickly that it's a scheduling nightmare, and demand has to be capitalized on, but I would say that more time should have been taken before any serious racing took place.
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Old 02-17-15, 08:46 PM
  #232  
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IMO the worst thing they could have done was done, which was entire elite and master fields instead of ability based racing.

This causes the pace to be insane as you have guys on the front, national champions, pushing guys mid pack out of their minds, and the back markers are just waiting to get lapped several times. They are just hanging on for dear life and mistakes happen. There was ZERO requirements for this race, you didnt even have to take an intro to track course.

I didn't race last weekend for a variety of reasons, this being the biggest one though. Nationals and MIC went off really well but it was because everyone was on the same level, fresh riders were not showing up to that. I 100% think racing needs to happen in some way or another, but it needs to be graceful and eased on. A/B race, gear restrictions, smaller fields, all would have probably prevented a lot of issues, and frankly would have let people enjoy the racing more. Some guys simply will never reach the level of national champions, so its not much encouragement to come back.
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Old 02-17-15, 09:27 PM
  #233  
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I wasn't there, but we'll have to take the word of @gtrob. And if that's what happened, then that IS the worst thing that could've happened. They need to implement either the A,B,C, scale, or they need to have separate Cat 1, 2, 3 for track, apart from the road. They already separate the MTB from the Road. A cat 1 on the road should start at the bottom if they have no track experience. Their fitness will allow then to learn the skills soon enough, and their road pack experience will help them move up quickly enough. Throughout my racing career, every successful track where the racing was fast AND safe had this system.

Last edited by taras0000; 02-17-15 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 02-17-15, 10:01 PM
  #234  
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FTR I wasn't necessarily being critical of the paramedics, just an observation regarding the people around the guy sprawled out on the concrete.

The not requiring the race certification at the very least was mind boggling. I got race certified and even I stayed away from the race. Not having ability separated classes was a huge deterrent for me. Newbie rack racer...with elite dudes, just because of my age. With more time, and some more specific training programs I have enrolled in over the next month or so, I will most likely give OCUP #2 a shot, but I'm going to prioritize my safety over anything else.
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Old 02-17-15, 10:11 PM
  #235  
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to be clear this was all on OCA, the track just rents the time to them and its their show. Don't want to get in trouble


Perhaps they expected less riders, but it was like 120 entries, which was more than nationals. Would have made for a great 1/2, 3, 4, womens, JR races. This is their first track event, they will figure it out. MNCC will also host our own racing, the Milton Cycling Academy which will be much more progressive, include individual events, smaller fields, etc.

The women have it just as bad, with less people they have an even bigger gap.
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Old 02-17-15, 11:18 PM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by nspace View Post
Lucky to get up and walk away from that. Watching it, it seems so strange how chill the people are around him while he is laying there on the concrete.
those aren't Paramedics those are officials- not only are they not medically trained they are busy trying to score the last 2 laps of a full scratch race.

could you imagine if you finished that race and nobody had the results because they stopped watching the race to tend to one guy who took himself out?

Taras is right- this was handled correctly
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Old 02-18-15, 01:19 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
to be clear this was all on OCA, the track just rents the time to them and its their show. Don't want to get in trouble
The problem with the OCA is they were never supportive of track and are now just hopping on the bandwagon.

Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Perhaps they expected less riders, but it was like 120 entries, which was more than nationals. Would have made for a great 1/2, 3, 4, womens, JR races. This is their first track event, they will figure it out. MNCC will also host our own racing, the Milton Cycling Academy which will be much more progressive, include individual events, smaller fields, etc.

The women have it just as bad, with less people they have an even bigger gap.
As I mentioned above, the OCA never had a hand in how track was handled or organized. Track was the red-headed stepchild that was left to look after itself and figure out how to survive on its own. It got a small (almost non-existant) portion of HPC funding and was basically forgotten about once the OCAs budget was set. It did well for itself because it was allowed to grow organically. What worked was kept, what didn't was discarded. There are people in the cycling community that are still around from when there was a consistent track scene 10(+) years ago that seem to have no hand or say into how the events are being organized. I know the old Win-Del track is nothing special compared to Milton, but the people that were running those races, or even those that run the events at FCV, have the knowledge on how to structure a track event with multiple rider categories and larger than normal fields. Are they being consulted on any of this, or are they left to watch on the sidelines?

Who's in charge of the O-Cup events? Is there a communique available that had the race schedule laid out for the weekend still floating around? Would be interesting to see how things were scheduled compared to other events.
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Old 02-18-15, 01:27 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
those aren't Paramedics those are officials- not only are they not medically trained they are busy trying to score the last 2 laps of a full scratch race.

could you imagine if you finished that race and nobody had the results because they stopped watching the race to tend to one guy who took himself out?

Taras is right- this was handled correctly
The other thing that most people don't realize, but you can see in most videos when it comes to crashes, even if there are medics on site, they usually aren't the first ones to make contact with the injured/affected party. This is true for most life situations involving first-aid/first response, not just sporting events.

There is also a lot that goes on in moments like this that are not just centered around the incident at hand and a lot of things have to be put into play within seconds of the incident by many people. Securing the scene, nuetralizing the race, making sure there is safe passage on the track to avoid the scene of the crash, and keeping track of how the race left off, and other things that I've probably forgotten to mention. Kind of like dealing with a serious collision during rush hour on a busy street.
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Old 02-18-15, 03:15 AM
  #239  
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I'd like to point out that the saddle that guy is using is not good for mass start racing. It is substantially shorter. It looks like an ISM Adamo or similar.

Here's how those types of saddles compare to standard saddles:



You don't sit on it as much as you perch your "sit bones" on the edge of it. You only get like 2 inches of seating area.



I got one cheap at a bike swap years ago and considered it for the kilo when I was trying to get really low. My perineum felt great but it was unstable.

It's designed for steady riding. I would definitely not use it for mass start races where you are on and off the saddle a lot because once you slip off the saddle, you can't coast, and you could lose control.
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Old 02-18-15, 03:37 AM
  #240  
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I've only noticed one track racer using such a saddle and that was Rebecca Romero:

But only on her TT bike sometimes:


I've only seen her use a normal saddle for mass start:
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Old 02-18-15, 03:51 AM
  #241  
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OK. Wait. So, they didn't require a track certification or track racing experience before allowing people to race?


Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
The problem with the OCA is they were never supportive of track and are now just hopping on the bandwagon.

As I mentioned above, the OCA never had a hand in how track was handled or organized. Track was the red-headed stepchild that was left to look after itself and figure out how to survive on its own. It got a small (almost non-existant) portion of HPC funding and was basically forgotten about once the OCAs budget was set. It did well for itself because it was allowed to grow organically. What worked was kept, what didn't was discarded. There are people in the cycling community that are still around from when there was a consistent track scene 10(+) years ago that seem to have no hand or say into how the events are being organized. I know the old Win-Del track is nothing special compared to Milton, but the people that were running those races, or even those that run the events at FCV, have the knowledge on how to structure a track event with multiple rider categories and larger than normal fields. Are they being consulted on any of this, or are they left to watch on the sidelines?

Who's in charge of the O-Cup events? Is there a communique available that had the race schedule laid out for the weekend still floating around? Would be interesting to see how things were scheduled compared to other events.
Sounds like what I've seen from more than one local/regional cycling organization. "Oh track? It's easy. It's like a crit but with no gears. Anybody can do it. Just pay your money and hop right on in..." MABRA (Mid-Atlantic Bicycle Racing Association) was like that for me.
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Old 02-18-15, 04:40 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by nspace View Post
And not the last:

Lucky to get up and walk away from that. Watching it, it seems so strange how chill the people are around him while he is laying there on the concrete.
Oh, wait. Is that you crashing in the video?

I just watched it over and over and a few things happened.

- When you finished pulling your lap, you didn't really do much. You just kinda hovered in the next lane. Also, the others didn't really pull through either. There is just a big ball of riders doing nothing.
- The next guy on the front doesn't pull. 1/2 lap later he moves one lane over from the sprinter's lane and slows down a bit, kinda forcing you into him. But, there is daylight and you can pass under him (always not a good idea)
- THEN superman is taking a flyer across the top which compells the guy that's pulling off and slowing down to scootch down a bit because well...because no reason really. This closes the door on you.

What could have been done to avoid this:

Yelling. Yelling, "Stick!", "Stay!" or "HOLD YOUR LINE!" to the guy that squeezed you could have helped.

If you did do that, learn to use your head or shoulder to make some space.


Last edited by carleton; 02-18-15 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 02-18-15, 05:12 AM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Oh, wait. Is that you crashing in the video?
Not nspace. Comment of theirs from above...

Originally Posted by nspace View Post
I got race certified and even I stayed away from the race. Not having ability separated classes was a huge deterrent for me.
Lucky there is the perspex. Saw a similar accident from a match sprint years ago at our local indoor where the rider in the sprinters lane got shunted into the infield. Unfortunately at our track the fencing isn't covered so the rider broke both legs plus if memory serves me correctly a couple of ribs for good measure. Plan was to put up perspex sheeting but still waiting...


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Old 02-18-15, 08:30 AM
  #244  
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Yeah definitely not me in the video! I did not race. Getting more track/drill time before I go on that adventure.

After I did my race certification, I couldn't believe that it wasn't a requirement....to actually enter the first race. A bit mind blowing if you ask me.

A little bit more track time for everyone hopefully will help make things better. I still see lots of sketchy stuff in drop-in sessions and usually you can figure out which wheels not to follow to closely after a few laps!
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Old 02-18-15, 08:34 AM
  #245  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Lucky there is the perspex. Saw a similar accident from a match sprint years ago at our local indoor where the rider in the sprinters lane got shunted into the infield. Unfortunately at our track the fencing isn't covered so the rider broke both legs plus if memory serves me correctly a couple of ribs for good measure. Plan was to put up perspex sheeting but still waiting...
Ouch!!! I am just picturing the same thing happening but with that metal fencing!
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Old 02-18-15, 10:25 AM
  #246  
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serious question to the various regions here, how does one get into racing? Its an issue on the road and track the same, everyone always says 'I dont want to race with a bunch of newbies', but we are all newbies at some point. What is the safest way to do your first few races? Keep the newbies together and restrict gearing? Have a mandatory class? I like the idea of forcing your first 5 races into a 10 person field or something, but we simply do not have enough racing yet. Even on the road that would take you nearly a year to get through here.

There are guys in that masters race that I know for a fact have spent less than 4 times on a track ever. They should not be racing next to national level riders, regardless of their own fitness. But how do you enforce this? We do have a race certification class however it doesn't take a ton of experience to pass, and to be honest if you end up with a bunch of non-aggressive riders its unfortunately difficult to asses people. Add to that if they are unfit they cannot keep up with the aggressive ones anyway, so what do you do with them.


I would love to enforce a mandatory minimum track time in our racing. I dont think Ill be able to of course, but along those lines.
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Old 02-18-15, 10:29 AM
  #247  
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Require track classes for certification to race.
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Old 02-18-15, 10:35 AM
  #248  
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At DLV, we use ATRA Cat A-D (A being highest, D being new racers).

Cat D racers must complete a beginners course. Then they must race in Cat D for AT LEAST 4 complete race days before asking the track director to promote them to C. Even guys are are CAT 1/2 on the road must do this!

We don't have gear restrictions, but the track director won't let the fast guys dust the pack until the final sprint. So even the Cat 1/2 guys MUST stay in the pack for the entire race till the final sprint.

After 4 race days and exhibiting bike handling skill AND the ability to keep up speed with the rest of the group, can a person be promoted out of the Ds into the Cs.

EDIT: Detailed info here: http://www.dicklanevelodrome.com/pag...ategories.html

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Old 02-18-15, 10:56 AM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
serious question to the various regions here, how does one get into racing? Its an issue on the road and track the same, everyone always says 'I dont want to race with a bunch of newbies', but we are all newbies at some point. What is the safest way to do your first few races? Keep the newbies together and restrict gearing? Have a mandatory class? I like the idea of forcing your first 5 races into a 10 person field or something, but we simply do not have enough racing yet. Even on the road that would take you nearly a year to get through here.

There are guys in that masters race that I know for a fact have spent less than 4 times on a track ever. They should not be racing next to national level riders, regardless of their own fitness. But how do you enforce this? We do have a race certification class however it doesn't take a ton of experience to pass, and to be honest if you end up with a bunch of non-aggressive riders its unfortunately difficult to asses people. Add to that if they are unfit they cannot keep up with the aggressive ones anyway, so what do you do with them.


I would love to enforce a mandatory minimum track time in our racing. I dont think Ill be able to of course, but along those lines.
It would be great to have courses you can register for (like the $30~ sessions we have now) that is designed for newbies to racing...where you actually get to race. Similar to what is done in the race certification but more in-depth. Explain the ins and outs of each race, rules, regulations, reinforce safety, and actually hold mini scratch/points/Keirin style races to build experience on the track with people of comparable experience before sending a whole bunch of people to compete at the provincial level in a race that is primarily broken up by male/female under 35/over 35.

What would be a reasonable amount of time time to log on the track do you think? Thus far I've maybe logged 18 hours going about 3x a week on average. I will start mixing in a 4th day on Thursdays over the next couple of weeks. I've signed up for the motorpacing and 2 of the Endurance sessions. I assume these sessions are to build fitness for these races but it would be a pleasant surprise if they ended with a bit of a mock race of some sort!

Even in the drop-ins there is a lot of inconsistencies. People not holding their line, and a lot of different methods for joining pacelines. Usually I will go high on the track and stay out of everyones way—when the paceline comes around I will use the banking to my advantage to roll down in behind the last person so that I don't have to make a mad sprint to catch on or cut anyone off. This morning I saw a couple people trying to ride ahead of the paceline and join on the front or get swallowed up by the group.

Last edited by nspace; 02-18-15 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 02-18-15, 11:08 AM
  #250  
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You need to have beginner races with small numbers of other beginners, going at beginner speeds...for several weeks.

Also, the more experienced racers should fight for this. No experienced racer wants newbies in the field.
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