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Old 02-16-15, 10:07 AM
  #1951  
queerpunk
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
What sort of drills do the points-specialists incorporate especially/ focus on in training? (a particular type of interval? loads of 500s? pursuit efforts?)
ta
thing about being a point race specialist is that there are a lot of different ways to be a points race specialist. locally, i have two rivals - one who won the points race series, and one who won the points race state championship. the first guy is a pursuit specialist, and he'll try to get away with one other rider. that's it. he won't really work if he's away with two. the second guy can survive working in a long-distance move (whether or not it laps the field), but he'd rather keep things together and suck up points in the sprint. [then there's me. i can do each of those things, but not as well as each of those two guys. so i'm kind of ****ed]

anyway, it comes down to looking at your strengths, and also improving your weaknesses.

in the winter, i do points race simulations on rollers. these involve repeated sprint intervals (enduro style sprints - 500s, like you mention), and when i'm feeling good they fly right into a 3-minute interval. early in my work with these, my 'off' time is truly off, and when i'm really going good, off is more like sweet spot (high sub-threshold).

i also do sprint work, some pursuit work, and some vo2max work. sprint work helps my jump, pursuit or team pursuit work helps just about everything (maybe 5-minute-and-under power is really the hallmark of a good track enduro), and vo2max work is kind of like a lot of other anaerobic work... good to improve your power when the going gets rough, or your ability to keep riding at all when the going gets rough.

carleton is right about overlap between points racers and crit racers. similarly, there are a lot of different ways to be good but ultimately you're going to need a good jump to stay with accelerations, good medium-term power to stick when it gets hot, and a halfway decent kick.

you also need a good tactical nose and there are no intervals that help with that.
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Old 02-17-15, 07:26 AM
  #1952  
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cool, thanks queerpunk and Carleton. Sounds like i'm mostly on the right track. Prolly need more pursuit training though :-/
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Old 02-17-15, 09:12 AM
  #1953  
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
cool, thanks queerpunk and Carleton. Sounds like i'm mostly on the right track. Prolly need more pursuit training though :-/
couldn't hurt. it's a real sweet spot area to target that makes you fast as hell. i can think of no downsides.
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Old 02-17-15, 09:28 AM
  #1954  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
couldn't hurt. it's a real sweet spot area to target that makes you fast as hell. i can think of no downsides.
Downside being that its my least favorite part of training!
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Old 02-17-15, 09:43 AM
  #1955  
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Or the downside is that he can become a pursuiter.
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Old 02-17-15, 09:46 AM
  #1956  
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Points race is pretty close to a crit in turns of output and intensity. Increasing your FTP will go a long way, since it will help you recover in between surges, as well as hold on when the pace gets silly. A strong sprint won't help much past the first couple of points since you wont be able to recover much anyway, and with guys trying to take a lap the pace is too high, you need to be on/near the front in the first place.
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Old 02-17-15, 10:49 AM
  #1957  
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I find points racing harder than criteriums. I think this is mainly because on the road the youths have their own races whereas on the track they are in with the adults!

On a completly unrelated point - the new garmin speed and cadence sensors do not work on indoor velodromes unlike the old gsc10 sensor
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Old 02-17-15, 12:00 PM
  #1958  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Exactly.

For those who don't know, let's differentiate between SPD and SPD-SL.

This is SPD:

They are made for MTB and CX. They are made for quick entry/exit and shedding mud.

Would I get laughed off the track if I showed up with SPDs and MTB shoes? I'd like to do an intro class at Kissena this spring and I don't currently own any other pedals/shoes. I'll gladly buy some if I need to, especially if i end up sticking with it and racing, but would I be better off showing up with clips/straps as a first-timer?
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Old 02-17-15, 12:11 PM
  #1959  
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Originally Posted by garlic_rice View Post
Would I get laughed off the track if I showed up with SPDs and MTB shoes? I'd like to do an intro class at Kissena this spring and I don't currently own any other pedals/shoes. I'll gladly buy some if I need to, especially if i end up sticking with it and racing, but would I be better off showing up with clips/straps as a first-timer?
Nothing wrong with MTB shoes and pedals to get started. I didn't own a set of road shoes before I went to the track. Just did a pedal swap on a rental bike with my own SPD pedals and went to town.
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Old 02-17-15, 12:50 PM
  #1960  
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+1

I would suggest that you crank up the tension to the max to prevent accidental release.
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Old 02-17-15, 12:57 PM
  #1961  
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Originally Posted by garlic_rice View Post
Would I get laughed off the track if I showed up with SPDs and MTB shoes? I'd like to do an intro class at Kissena this spring and I don't currently own any other pedals/shoes. I'll gladly buy some if I need to, especially if i end up sticking with it and racing, but would I be better off showing up with clips/straps as a first-timer?
From what I have heard of Kissena, you might be better off with Mountain Bike equipment
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Old 02-17-15, 01:01 PM
  #1962  
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Originally Posted by zizou View Post
I find points racing harder than criteriums.
Definitely. Take the last 5 laps of a crit and do it (at least) 6 times back to back. I don't think FTP is the key to points races (though obviously the bigger the foundation the better)... it is the anaerobic endurance... burning match after match and recovering. I don't think that has anything to do with FTP, which is why I see guys with much bigger FTP than mine getting popped in points races.
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Old 02-17-15, 01:13 PM
  #1963  
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Originally Posted by garlic_rice View Post
Would I get laughed off the track if I showed up with SPDs and MTB shoes? I'd like to do an intro class at Kissena this spring and I don't currently own any other pedals/shoes. I'll gladly buy some if I need to, especially if i end up sticking with it and racing, but would I be better off showing up with clips/straps as a first-timer?
You will definitely not get laughed off the track. Kissena is a great, friendly, grassroots scene. Run what you brung is completely acceptable. I started racing there in '07 and there were plent of people in short and t-shirts, even some people in clips and straps. Sure, somebody might come along and say "Hey, you might find road pedals to be a good upgrade" but that's a good sign, not a bad one.
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Old 02-17-15, 03:19 PM
  #1964  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
You will definitely not get laughed off the track. Kissena is a great, friendly, grassroots scene. Run what you brung is completely acceptable. I started racing there in '07 and there were plent of people in short and t-shirts, even some people in clips and straps. Sure, somebody might come along and say "Hey, you might find road pedals to be a good upgrade" but that's a good sign, not a bad one.
Thank you and everybody else who replied! Now I just need to get the basic equipment (proper gearing, decent wheels) and i'll be somewhat ready.
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Old 02-18-15, 02:26 PM
  #1965  
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Originally Posted by zizou View Post
On a completly unrelated point - the new garmin speed and cadence sensors do not work on indoor velodromes unlike the old gsc10 sensor
What do you mean by they don't work? Are you not getting a GPS signal thus they don't provide any usefull data?

I'm not sure whether I have the old or new sensors (Edge 510 if it helps) but when I turn off the GPS I get speed and cadence data just fine.

On a semi-related note, what's a good way to get some realtime data? I'm mostly looking for analyzing flying sprints right afterwards. My Garmin Edge 510 doesn't seem to support that, I thought about using the 'Max Speed' (there is no Max Cadence but I could calculate that from the speed) but I don't like resetting the recording between every attempt.

Any (Android) apps that record and display data realtime through ANT+/etc?
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Old 02-18-15, 03:58 PM
  #1966  
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Originally Posted by rndstr View Post
What do you mean by they don't work? Are you not getting a GPS signal thus they don't provide any usefull data?

I'm not sure whether I have the old or new sensors (Edge 510 if it helps) but when I turn off the GPS I get speed and cadence data just fine.

On a semi-related note, what's a good way to get some realtime data? I'm mostly looking for analyzing flying sprints right afterwards. My Garmin Edge 510 doesn't seem to support that, I thought about using the 'Max Speed' (there is no Max Cadence but I could calculate that from the speed) but I don't like resetting the recording between every attempt.

Any (Android) apps that record and display data realtime through ANT+/etc?
I really like my SRM Powercontrol 7 head unit. I don't use powermeter cranks anymore. Just speed and cadence sensors. I can see max speed and cadence for each interval in the display. The best part is that it records as frequently as ever 0.5 seconds, which is one of the fastest rates around. Most record every 1 second.
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Old 02-18-15, 04:40 PM
  #1967  
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I can't figure out what that guy is talking about with the New Garmin Sensors- I assume it's the new ones that separate speed and cadence- with speed mounting on the wheel hub.. I've had zero issues with mine. The fact that he says it didn't work indoors makes me wonder if he was actually running gps speed data... I have no issues with the new sensor and really like not having a magnet or anything mounted on the fork blade.

Intervals with the garmin is a pain.
What you (we) need is a "Speed Max Lap" and a "Cadence max lap" screen... They don't exist...which is weird because there is a "Power Max Lap" screen..
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Old 02-18-15, 04:45 PM
  #1968  
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I think the only difference with the new ones is that they use an accelerometer instead of magnets. There are lots of guys using them at our indoor track without issue.
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Old 02-18-15, 04:46 PM
  #1969  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The best part is that it records as frequently as ever 0.5 seconds, which is one of the fastest rates around. Most record every 1 second.
if you didn't hold it for a second, did you actually do it?
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Old 02-18-15, 05:32 PM
  #1970  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
if you didn't hold it for a second, did you actually do it?
Instantaneous max speed for certain efforts is a good milestone metric, especially for sprint work that involve maximum efforts.

Believe it or not, instantaneous max speed is directly related to final time in the flying 200M, especially on tracks that use only 1 turn during a F200 (like on a 333 vs a 250). Given enough sample data, I can create a formula to calculate a predicted F200M time based on the max speed. I did it for TTown and DLV and the results were within +/-0.1" of recorded times.

Max speed is nice for bragging, but it's also a valuable training metric.
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Old 02-18-15, 06:41 PM
  #1971  
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Originally Posted by rndstr View Post
What do you mean by they don't work? Are you not getting a GPS signal thus they don't provide any usefull data?

I'm not sure whether I have the old or new sensors (Edge 510 if it helps) but when I turn off the GPS I get speed and cadence data just fine.

GPS is off, i've used the old sensor for years but got the new one because it looks much better. Anyway noticed that there were big peaks and troughs on the speed plot (bigger than the small ones on previous sensor) I contacted garmin customer service about this thinking it was faulty and they asked about usage etc and when i mentioned i was using it indoors at the velodrome they said this was to be expected if the banking is steep - they didnt mention why but presumably the accelerometer doesnt work as well when it is tilted.

It still measures speed and distance it's just not as accurate as the old one.
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Old 02-19-15, 12:30 AM
  #1972  
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Is the garmin GPS accurate enough to get usable lap times on a 250m? I don't have any experience with it but even actual race beacons seem like they could be pretty inaccurate.

Going by my phone GPS times I should be getting a call from the Oly Devo Team any minute. Or I was walking the track.
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Old 02-19-15, 04:32 AM
  #1973  
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Can I use Garmin Vectors (Or indeed should I even bother) on my track bike? I've measured them and the cranks are within the recommended dimensions.
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Old 02-19-15, 05:38 AM
  #1974  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Can I use Garmin Vectors (Or indeed should I even bother) on my track bike? I've measured them and the cranks are within the recommended dimensions.
Iirc they have some issues with the applying power backwards/never coasting that occurs on the track that results in reduced accuracy. You can probably find the details on the wattage board.
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Old 02-19-15, 12:23 PM
  #1975  
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After a get-off, how much time should I allow before getting back on the track?

More road rash on top of this road rash would be horrific.
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