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Assisting a down cyclist when first-responders are already on site?

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Assisting a down cyclist when first-responders are already on site?

Old 04-17-19, 08:06 AM
  #26  
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I once stopped to try and help a pedestrian, down and unconscious after a hit and run, and watched EMS arrive and bundle her onto a back board without even thinking about stabilizing her neck. I murmured a polite suggestion, which they ignored. Intervening with professionals and officers is generally a bad idea, but my faith in people doing the right thing has been, shall we say, tempered by medical training and world experience.

The cops around here aren't perfect, but are a great net positive for cyclists.
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Old 04-17-19, 08:16 AM
  #27  
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WRT the police: It takes all kinds. I wouldn't expect a fair shake in any interaction regarding a minority population. (In this case a cyclist.) First & foremost it is their job to preserve order & the status quo of the majority. Of which "peace" is the standard state. It is not their job to be an advocate for the underserved. It's also not their job to be "nice." It is their job to be fair & impartial. We flavor this with words like: "duty" or "professionalism."

We don't want opinion or personal bias involved in a police officers decision tree.

WRT to the accident on scene. It's worth a look, but not necessarily involvement. A camera or particular detail might be worth mention if seen. Knowing that stopsign is regularly run might be worth mention for future enforcement efforts or to add to understanding.

I came across an accident once where a kid was tagged while in a crosswalk. I saw him picking himself up off the ground. So I made note of the car/driver description/age/race, license plate, etc... & drove home, grabbed a cycling lawyer advertisment & an umbrella for the rain. When I returned to the scene. The police had arrived, the victim & the perpetrator were still around. I had nothing to add, so the victim got an umbrella for his walk home, the lawyer advertisment & a confirmation from the pair of cops that from previous experience or reputation "that lawyer was a good one."

Really, any further involvement would've been inappropriate.

Last edited by base2; 04-17-19 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 04-17-19, 09:42 AM
  #28  
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Last June, I had a crash on a roadside and was a bit stunned and unable to do anything except cry out weakly for help. A passing cyclist heard from the opposite side of the street and he came to my aid. He phoned 911, phoned my employer, phoned my wife and waited until the ambulance came. He also made sure that my bike made it into the ambulance for our ride to the ER.

I think that he also may have helped me gather my scattered things and stuff them into my backpack, but I cannot be certain. Thanks, John, wherever you are.
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Old 04-17-19, 09:47 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Can you please quote the text that states the police will mistreat the injured cyclist?
.
I already DID, quoting you, in the post of mine that you quoted, so I'm not sure how you missed it.
But, again, in that quote, you clearly alluded to some supposed risk that this injured cyclist may not be treated properly, citing it as your justification for wanting to get involved here.....

Originally Posted by Hypno Toad
"....... I would not trust that office to treat an injured biker with all required respect....."
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Old 04-17-19, 09:55 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Brocephus View Post
I already DID, quoting you, in the post of mine that you quoted, so I'm not sure how you missed it.
But, again, in that quote, you clearly alluded to some supposed risk that this injured cyclist may not be treated properly, citing it as your justification for wanting to get involved here.....

Originally Posted by Hypno Toad
"....... I would not trust that office to treat an injured biker with all required respect....."
I said "respect", not "mistreat", there is a significant difference. So you misread (misrepresented) the quote you used. Please check your personal biases and read the post as written, kthxbye.
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Old 04-17-19, 12:49 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
I said "respect", not "mistreat", there is a significant difference. So you misread (misrepresented) the quote you used. Please check your personal biases and read the post as written, kthxbye.
Failure by the police to show proper courtesy and respect, to any citizen they're sworn to serve (much less, an injured citizen), would, by definition, be "mistreatment". What, did you think i was talking about them beating him with their batons ?
And again, had they failed to display the proper respect, as you saw it, exactly what were you going to do about it (that didn't result in you getting jacked-up for interfering with them)?
This entire thread topic is stupid, as is your constant shuffling and dodging to keep justifying it !!
As stated already, given that you never even witnessed the incident, and short of the cops openly violating the law, it's not really any of your business. You're imagining a non-existent problem, then coming up with hypothetical "solutions".
"Uh, excuse me,officers, I'm a self-appointed "bicycle advocate", here to make sure everything acceptably conforms to my personal sense of propriety,protocol and civility. Please, feel free to go about your business, until I inform you otherwise. Be aware, I will be submitting a full report to The Global Commission On Police/ Cyclist Relations".

Last edited by Brocephus; 04-17-19 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:09 PM
  #32  
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What a bunch of angst, misplaced aggression, and one good post from @Phil_gretz.

Some people really believe cops would not take care of an accident victim if that victim had been riding a bicycle. Really? Have Any real-world experience to back that up? ,or just a general sense that nobody likes cyclists? (By the way, paranoia is treatable. Seek help.)

"Advocate' for the victim? That is a meaningless phrase. Unless you are a witness, all you can do is get in the way. I don't think some random stranger walking up to the scene telling first responders, "I ride a bicycle, let me tell you what to do" is going to be helpful in any way.

The guy who helped phil_gretz was really helpful. And aside from suggesting that the bike go into the ambulance, there was nothing much the Good Samaritan did once the first responders arrived. So ... there is a real world lesson in how to "advocate" for a downed cyclist.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:17 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Not an 'enthusiast' - I am an advocate. There is a significant difference.
There's really not...

Both are terms that are self applied, have different meanings to different people, and have absolutely no legal standing whatsoever.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:31 PM
  #34  
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It's so damned funny, all these angry posts to "stay out of it" ... 'cause that's exactly what the Toad did.

I asked a honest question; I got a lot of good thoughtful feedback that supported my actions (or non-action) and then there's the unjustified level of anger. The only place with more irrational rage is a political exchange on Twitter - thanks for all the love.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:33 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
There's really not...

Both are terms that are self applied, have different meanings to different people, and have absolutely no legal standing whatsoever.
Please see my signature line and understand that words do have different meaning - and not everything is a legal issue, unless you're a lawyer.

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 04-17-19 at 03:03 PM. Reason: fixing the ever-present typo
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Old 04-17-19, 02:56 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Please see my signature line and understand that words do have different meaning - and not everything is a legal issue, unless your a lawyer.
Huh?
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Old 04-17-19, 03:02 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
Huh?
This:
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I'm blaming you. There's a difference.
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Old 04-17-19, 06:10 PM
  #38  
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Uh...okay. No idea what you are talking about.
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Old 04-17-19, 06:52 PM
  #39  
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There would have been absolutely nothing wrong with asking the bicyclist if he needed any help. Assuming that your not interfering with the first responders actions that is.

Example "Hi, I am Toad. I am a bicyclist, and I know what you are going through sucks. I thought I'd offer to help if you need any at all."

With that the rider can accept help or turn it down. If he asks you to do something, you tell the first responders that the rider has asked you to do "X" and ask them if they mind.

Sometimes it can be comforting to people just to know that others care about them.
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Old 04-17-19, 07:56 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
No worries, I was being surly (work has been crushing my soul lately).
I do, however, take issue with you referring to the police who will be handling the victim's bike as a couple of gorillas. Please, that is both unnecessary and unkind, and demonstrates tremendous disrespect to people who fight the good fight often thanklessly every day to keep us safer.
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Old 04-18-19, 06:28 AM
  #41  
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You quoted my post: Not an 'enthusiast' - I am an advocate. There is a significant difference.

And posted:
Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
There's really not...
Both are terms that are self applied, have different meanings to different people, and have absolutely no legal standing whatsoever.
This is not a legal form, I am using the dictionary to define and differentiate these terms ... a quick search gives the following definitions:

Advocate:
a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.
"he was an untiring advocate of economic reform"
Enthusiast:
a person who is highly interested in a particular activity or subject.
​​​​​​​"a sports car enthusiast"
By donating and volunteer with Our Streets, Minnetonka Mountain Bike Advocates, Bike Cops for Kids, Free Bikes for Kids, and many other local bike organizations ... that qualifies the Toad as an advocate. OTOH, a dentist that spends $10k on the newest bike every spring, that's an enthusiast.

I hope that clears it up that these two words do have definitions and aren't simply self-applied. And if you find it challenging to define terms in the future, simply copy the troubling word and paste it the googles
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Old 04-18-19, 06:30 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by daoswald View Post
I do, however, take issue with you referring to the police who will be handling the victim's bike as a couple of gorillas. Please, that is both unnecessary and unkind, and demonstrates tremendous disrespect to people who fight the good fight often thanklessly every day to keep us safer.
Please scroll up to post 7 and look at the person who posted that, thanks!
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Old 04-18-19, 06:46 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
You quoted my post: Not an 'enthusiast' - I am an advocate. There is a significant difference.

And posted:


This is not a legal form, I am using the dictionary to define and differentiate these terms ... a quick search gives the following definitions:

Advocate:

Enthusiast:

By donating and volunteer with Our Streets, Minnetonka Mountain Bike Advocates, Bike Cops for Kids, Free Bikes for Kids, and many other local bike organizations ... that qualifies the Toad as an advocate. OTOH, a dentist that spends $10k on the newest bike every spring, that's an enthusiast.

I hope that clears it up that these two words do have definitions and aren't simply self-applied. And if you find it challenging to define terms in the future, simply copy the troubling word and paste it the googles
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

They are self applied. The Queen didn't have you kneel before her and put a sword to your shoulder while knighting you an 'advocate'.

And neither of those terms gives you any credence to insert yourself into an accident scene of strangers.
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Old 04-18-19, 07:23 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

They are self applied. The Queen didn't have you kneel before her and put a sword to your shoulder while knighting you an 'advocate'.

And neither of those terms gives you any credence to insert yourself into an accident scene of strangers.
You're posts lack clarity. It appeared you were arguing the difference between the terms 'advocate' and 'enthusiast'; however, you simple see no reason for the term advocate, right?

You are correct, no person is elected to the role of advocate. But imagine our communities if no person stepped up as a volunteer and donated money to improve our communities. If you don't like the term 'advocate', please share the correct term for somebody that shares their hard-earn money and limited time to improve the community for people they will never meet.

I love how condescending you (& others) are when support the decision I made (reminder: I did not go to the scene and did not talk with the injured person - I stayed out of it). All these irrationally angry posts are criticizing me for thinking it over and sharing the question with BF.

OTOH - there have been some very helpful posts - I am thankful for the people that 'get it' and don't get us stuck in some ridiculous rabbit hole about the meaning of a simple term.

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 04-18-19 at 04:11 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-18-19, 07:26 AM
  #45  
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I think this thread has circled the drain, gone down the drain, and then backed up through the overflow hole at the back of the sink.

No one is disagreeing that he shouldn't have done anything. The argument now is about whether there is some hypothetical set of circumstances where help from a non-witness bystander cyclist would be appropriate even after the professional responders have arrived Obviously, it is at least theoretically possible that one could come upon a scene that was being so blatantly mishandled that intervention might be imperative, but I think the probability of coming across such a thing are so small as to make the conversation rather pointless. If you see a cop putting all his attention to taking a picture of a dented fender while the cyclist is lying in the road going into shock unattended, knock yourself out. Obviously, someone needs to step in to ensure that cyclist's safety. But if you want to get into a situation to advocate for cycling and cyclists, I'd suggest that isn't the time or place.
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Old 04-18-19, 07:27 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
You're posts lack clarity. It appeared you were arguing the difference between the terms 'advocate' and 'enthusiast'; however, you simple see no reason for the term advocate, right?

You are correct, no person is elected to the role of advocate. But image our communities if no person stepped up as a volunteer and donated money to improve our communities. If you don't like the term 'advocate', please share the correct term for somebody that shares their hard-earn money and limited time to improve the community for people they will never meet.

I love how condescending you (& others) are when support the decision I made (reminder: I did not go to the scene and did not talk with the injured person - I stayed out of it). All these irrationally angry posts are criticizing me for thinking it over and sharing the question with BF.

OTOH - there have been some very helpful posts - I am thankful for the people that 'get it' and don't get us stuck in some ridiculous rabbit hole about the meaning of a simple term.
What does any of that have to do with inserting yourself into a crime scene where paramedics need to treat an injured person?

Just stay out of their darn way
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Old 04-18-19, 07:53 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
What does any of that have to do with inserting yourself into a crime scene where paramedics need to treat an injured person?

Just stay out of their darn way
"Crime scene"?? What crime scene? Please scroll up to post 19. You've made a lot of stuff up about this event. It's kinda entertaining.

Do you understand that I did "stay out of the darn way"???

As a self-anointed advocate, I will continue to work with organizations to make the roads & trails safer and more inviting for all people that want to use bikes for transportation, fitness, fun, etc. This includes engagement with the local PD to help them be their best when they respond to a person injured while biking; therefore, there will be no need to "insert myself" in a "crime scene".

Fun talk ... cheers.
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Old 04-18-19, 08:17 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
"Crime scene"?? What crime scene? Please scroll up to post 19. You've made a lot of stuff up about this event. It's kinda entertaining.

Do you understand that I did "stay out of the darn way"???

As a self-anointed advocate, I will continue to work with organizations to make the roads & trails safer and more inviting for all people that want to use bikes for transportation, fitness, fun, etc. This includes engagement with the local PD to help them be their best when they respond to a person injured while biking; therefore, there will be no need to "insert myself" in a "crime scene".

Fun talk ... cheers.
Whatever dude.

Have your fun with whatever game you're playing here. I'm out.
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Old 04-18-19, 08:38 AM
  #49  
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All I can do is give you some of my own perspective from an collision I had. Short story...woman left hooked me. Bike destroyed. I was basically okay with some cuts and a little stunned (not head injury, but just shocked). Several pedestrians nearby did help. Called 911, helped me collect my thoughts, let me borrow a phone to call my wife and gave me their phone number as a witness. This was very appreciated. Once the cops and paramedics arrived they backed off and let the paramedics do their thing, but did tell the police what they saw (honestly it was not much, but did help). I'm not sure how helpful it would have been if say 15 minutes after the first responders arrived a random cyclist showed up and interjected themselves into the scene. I'm pretty sure if I saw a fellow cyclist being helped by the authorities I would not butt in.

BTW the police were very nice. I did not need to go to the hospital, but they made sure to wait until my wife showed up. They basically told me their department doesn't leave anyone stranded.
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Old 04-18-19, 10:10 AM
  #50  
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Before I try to beat the looming wall of thunderstorms and head out on the mean-streets on my bike, (possibly to never return !! ) , I'd like to say, as one of this threads most culpable pot-stirrers, that no offense was intended. As well all know, this is just the interwebz, where silly arguments ensue, and then take on a life of their own. No harm, no foul, just good clean fun !!
to all......
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