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Will you ever go disc?

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Will you ever go disc?

Old 05-06-19, 05:33 PM
  #251  
Abe_Froman
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Originally Posted by winston63 View Post
Disc brakes don't make it any harder, but It can take longer with through-axles, particularly the rear wheel. And since almost all disc brake frames now come with through-axles it may be something worth noting.

It's not a show stopper, but I find it is more work getting the rear wheel back on as compared to a bike with QR skewers. It's just a bit finicky getting everything lined up then threading the skewer through the axle.

As I said, not show stopper, but certainly a bit more work than a bike with QR skewers.
I disagree with that...I find thru axles to be both easier and faster.

No QRs can be finicky.. getting them into the dropouts to begin with, then adjusting them.

Tru axles are simple. Theyre completely out of tge way when you're putting the wheel back on. Then they clamp in with exactly the same force every time.

Also, mine are a bit of a hybrid. Focus TAs just require a quarter turn when theyre in, then you flip the clamp lime you would on a quick release.
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Old 05-06-19, 05:39 PM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by on the path View Post
Everybody, meaning those within earshot of you or those un-named who post on the internet? Who's hallucinating here? When it comes to science and reasoning vs opinions of invisible people, I'll take science every time. Care to address my points? I didn't think so.
When you get around to making a point, I'll address it.
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Old 05-06-19, 05:40 PM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Science. Lol.
He said he's using science, and he said it on the internet. Clearly, the matter is settled.
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Old 05-06-19, 06:26 PM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
BB7's can perform fairly well....for a mechanical disc (low bar). I have found that I have to pair them with Yokozuna cable housing to generate enough power with them to get adequate performance.

This said - mechanical are not hydraulic. Hydraulic will compensate while mechanical won't. Whole different ballgame. That said - poor compensation in hydraulic setups leads to all sorts of centering and rotor rub issues. A non-starter for a true roadie.
I've just been using ordinary jagwire housing and don't have any problems with the stopping power. My issue is with the noise, rubbing and general finickiness of the BB7's. Perhaps my standards for stopping power are abnormally low. I rode a hilly 300k in the driftless on Saturday and my calipers worked flawlessly as far as I could tell since I didn't crash into anything.
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Old 05-06-19, 06:43 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by on the path View Post
This is really the issue. Tire adhesion will always be the limiting factor when it comes to braking. In terms of significance, the ability of the tire to grip the given riding surface, at the tire patch, far outweighs clamping power and (oh brother) modulation.
Adhesion is not usually the limiting factor with stopping either. On any reasonable road surface keeping the back wheel somewhere near the ground is the limiter.
There is no argument that is rim brake is better at stopping a bike than a disc. It just isn't.
Whether you want to put up with the disadvantages of discs is a different thing.
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Old 05-06-19, 06:51 PM
  #256  
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Will you guys ever go to brifters? I can still get the chain to another cog from the down tube, this newer stuff just moves the chain to another cog. Therefore bar end shifters are exactly the same as etap, just like you can lock the wheel up with a rim brake. That's the only thing that matters, right?
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Old 05-06-19, 09:55 PM
  #257  
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My rim brakes work fine. If I end up buying a C64 I might get disc brakes with it.

I am not, however, getting electronic shifting. OK that’s a subject for a different thread.
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Old 05-06-19, 10:49 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Will you guys ever go to brifters? I can still get the chain to another cog from the down tube, this newer stuff just moves the chain to another cog. Therefore bar end shifters are exactly the same as etap, just like you can lock the wheel up with a rim brake. That's the only thing that matters, right?
Brifters: good analogy. Yeah, I hate retro-grouches who refuse to accept new and superior tech. Like disk breaks.

I want a suspension fork on my road bike; why not - it is just a little extra weight. Plus rear suspension, tri-bars, an aero disk rear wheel, and space for 40mm tires would mean a truly do-it-all bike. You never know when you're going to be 'hucking off of jumps and time-trialing on the same ride.

I also want a 1 x drivetrain to reduce the complexity of the bike. Then, in order to get the range of gears I want, the new 13-speed drivetrains is a must.
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Old 05-07-19, 12:26 AM
  #259  
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Ok.
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Old 05-07-19, 05:31 AM
  #260  
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My entry level road bike (2007 Sequoia) had really poor brakes. Dirty roads and wet conditions, like puddles from sprinklers, caused a slurry of abrasive junk to be ground into the rim. Although the brakes are way high from the road, the rim is not and there is nothing but wind and gravity to clean off the rim before it is pressurized.

If I wanted to ride in winter, snowy icy winter, rim brakes are just inferior to disc. I found a deal on a Straggler frame and put BB7 brakes on it. I have had to learn how to adjust the brakes, and that was a small price for superior stopping.

If weight is everything to you and you are not overweight, then rim brakes weigh less. I intend to stay with discs for future bikes.
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Old 05-07-19, 07:43 AM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I've just been using ordinary jagwire housing and don't have any problems with the stopping power. My issue is with the noise, rubbing and general finickiness of the BB7's. Perhaps my standards for stopping power are abnormally low. I rode a hilly 300k in the driftless on Saturday and my calipers worked flawlessly as far as I could tell since I didn't crash into anything.
I'm sure they work fine for you. I have had setups where the same could be said. I have also had setups where I was only able to get adequate performance out of them by putting yokos on. Just like how some people can't get rim brakes to work well for them unless they change pad compound. Only this hasn't been 1 or 2 situations but more in the 5-6 arena.

I work on a lot of bikes. I see a lot of things. When it happens repeatedly over many scenarios then it's a trait of the part.

What you're talking about with the rubbing and adjustments - if you set them far enough out you eliminate all of that....but then you have crap brake performance. It's finding the sweet spot in between. When customers bring a bike in to be adjusted they don't want to learn how to make those adjustments on their own and they don't want to be bringing it back every week. I have to fix it correctly and permanently. The switch in housing does that.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:04 AM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Ok.
I take it you missed his sarcasm.

Integrated shift levers dramatically changed the entire experience of riding and made it infinitely safer by leaving the riders hands on the bars all the time.

When they were introduced you had a few knuckle draggers who refused to change because they felt like it changed the spirit of riding.

Disc brakes do not make the ride on a road bike infinitely safer. Rim brakes have had enough power to cause both tire contact patches to lose their grip and skid...easily. Adding more oomph doesn't make it better. In fact at some point someone will try to come out with a smaller than 140 rotor for road disc.....just wait and see... because they already have too much braking force. Shimano nixed the first gen where they provided 2 different hoses for hydraulic systems. Even they tried to offset the power by providing hoses that ....in essence - expanded/swelled under high pressure. This effectively reduced the brake power.

They only ditched them because riders complained it left the brakes feeling spongy. They still offer it though for solving situations where the rider keeps locking up the brakes - losing control....because that's a thing when you have more braking power than you need.

So again, I ride disc. It's not better for me. I will always feel that it adds complication, maintenance, cost, and weight to solve a problem that wasn't there and didn't need to be solved. It's drastically changed the nature of competing in the sport from a technical aspect and has left many racers sitting high and dry come race time. Roll your eyes all you want at that but I see it every weekend. Hell on Saturday a college kid had to bum an inner tube. He would have missed his race. He ended up getting second.

So...racers aren't prepared and never will be and this adds to their issues.
Regular people who buy bikes are by and large completely incapable of maintaining or adjusting disc brakes. More of them were able to maintain and adjust rim brakes.
Hydraulic disc brake systems are less stable long term than rim brakes are - assuring us that in 15-20 years when Mikey takes dads old "adventure" bike out to try the local group ride he's going to cause some serious mayhem and damage.

So no. Not vastly superior. Superior in descending mountains in wet conditions? Yes. Yay. Glad we sent a whole market in that direction to address those rider's specific concerns.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:13 AM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Will you guys ever go to brifters? I can still get the chain to another cog from the down tube, this newer stuff just moves the chain to another cog. Therefore bar end shifters are exactly the same as etap, just like you can lock the wheel up with a rim brake. That's the only thing that matters, right?
I tried brifters. Didn't like them. Went back to friction barcons. Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 05-07-19, 10:15 AM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by Renato GF Naso View Post
Hi!! Yes, I wouldn't mind discs, but only with four-fingers cross-style brake-levers, to keep the weight at the back! (It's a matter of weight-distribution!!)
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
You're so right about this, I really can't believe that the industry has yet to offer some sort of auxiliary brake levers for the so-popular gravel bikes. The several-inch reduction of reach to the bars when descending steeper sections off road is just huge in terms of what you can and can't do safely.

They can either add a pivoted lever to the sides of the existing levers, or develop a simple check-valve equipped auxiliary master cylinder for each brake line, but they really should have had this sorted out a good couple of years ago imo.

Ask and ye shall receive -


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Old 05-07-19, 10:43 AM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I take it you missed his sarcasm.
No, I caught the sarcasm. I feel like I gave that specific post the attention it deserved.
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Old 05-07-19, 11:42 AM
  #266  
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Interesting, thanks!!

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Ask and ye shall receive -



Thank you!! I didn't know that Shimano had hydraulic cross-levers! (I might be tempted of buying hydraulic disc brakes... their cross-levers are for sure easier to install than the cable operated ones!!)
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Old 05-07-19, 12:02 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by Renato GF Naso View Post
Thank you!! I didn't know that Shimano had hydraulic cross-levers! (I might be tempted of buying hydraulic disc brakes... their cross-levers are for sure easier to install than the cable operated ones!!)
They were just announced within the last 24 hours or so.
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Old 05-07-19, 12:19 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by Renato GF Naso View Post
Thank you!! I didn't know that Shimano had hydraulic cross-levers! (I might be tempted of buying hydraulic disc brakes... their cross-levers are for sure easier to install than the cable operated ones!!)
Well, they didnt. But they do now :-)
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Old 05-07-19, 01:50 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
I disagree with that...I find thru axles to be both easier and faster.

No QRs can be finicky.. getting them into the dropouts to begin with, then adjusting them.

Tru axles are simple. Theyre completely out of tge way when you're putting the wheel back on. Then they clamp in with exactly the same force every time.

Also, mine are a bit of a hybrid. Focus TAs just require a quarter turn when theyre in, then you flip the clamp lime you would on a quick release.
That design would help. But I still can't see it being easier than rim brakes + QR.

Perhaps it's my mechanical ineptitude, but I've got a bike with disks and thru-axles (Spec. Diverge) and it takes me quite a bit longer to get a tire off and on compared to my Scott with rim brakes and QR.

On the Scott I flip a lever to open the brake caliber, open the QR and fix the flat then reverse the process.

On the Diverge, I need to get an allen wrench, unscrew the inner skewer, remove it and the wheel. Fix the flat, then, if I'm lucky and it's the front tire, reverse the process which doesn't take much longer than it does with rim brakes.

If it's the rear tire (which it almost always is) I find it can be a bit finicky to get the chain back on the cassette while lining up the rotor between the disk brake pads and getting the wheel centered on the dropouts so I can thread the skewer back in. Then I need the allen wrench to tighten things up.

Sure, it's not the most difficult thing in the world, but it's definitely extra hassle beyond what I need to do with QR and rim brakes.
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Old 05-07-19, 01:54 PM
  #270  
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Brand new!!

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They were just announced within the last 24 hours or so.
Just 24 hours? Wow! Where did you get that news? (From the Shimano's homepage? I'll take a look, thanks)
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Old 05-07-19, 02:09 PM
  #271  
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Great!!

Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Well, they didnt. But they do now :-)
The only problem is that in 3rd-world countries which names end with -stan... (like those I would have to cross on my way to China) one cannot get spare parts for hydraulic systems! (In that case it's better to stick to mechanical ones) But I might get hydraulic for my Atala racer...
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Old 05-07-19, 02:10 PM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by winston63 View Post
That design would help. But I still can't see it being easier than rim brakes + QR.

Perhaps it's my mechanical ineptitude, but I've got a bike with disks and thru-axles (Spec. Diverge) and it takes me quite a bit longer to get a tire off and on compared to my Scott with rim brakes and QR.

On the Scott I flip a lever to open the brake caliber, open the QR and fix the flat then reverse the process.

On the Diverge, I need to get an allen wrench, unscrew the inner skewer, remove it and the wheel. Fix the flat, then, if I'm lucky and it's the front tire, reverse the process which doesn't take much longer than it does with rim brakes.

If it's the rear tire (which it almost always is) I find it can be a bit finicky to get the chain back on the cassette while lining up the rotor between the disk brake pads and getting the wheel centered on the dropouts so I can thread the skewer back in. Then I need the allen wrench to tighten things up.

Sure, it's not the most difficult thing in the world, but it's definitely extra hassle beyond what I need to do with QR and rim brakes.

I think it's the requirement of the allen key that's slowing it down for you...that's a bit silly IMO.

Just a tip...but if you're religious about putting the chain in the smallest cog in back, and always making sure you seat the smallest cog onto the chain when you're putting the wheel back in, you'll get zero trouble from the disc; it'll slide right in.
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Old 05-07-19, 02:52 PM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by winston63 View Post
That design would help. But I still can't see it being easier than rim brakes + QR.

Perhaps it's my mechanical ineptitude, but I've got a bike with disks and thru-axles (Spec. Diverge) and it takes me quite a bit longer to get a tire off and on compared to my Scott with rim brakes and QR.

On the Scott I flip a lever to open the brake caliber, open the QR and fix the flat then reverse the process.

On the Diverge, I need to get an allen wrench, unscrew the inner skewer, remove it and the wheel. Fix the flat, then, if I'm lucky and it's the front tire, reverse the process which doesn't take much longer than it does with rim brakes.

If it's the rear tire (which it almost always is) I find it can be a bit finicky to get the chain back on the cassette while lining up the rotor between the disk brake pads and getting the wheel centered on the dropouts so I can thread the skewer back in. Then I need the allen wrench to tighten things up.

Sure, it's not the most difficult thing in the world, but it's definitely extra hassle beyond what I need to do with QR and rim brakes.
That's not a universal thing. You might be able to get a different axle? Mine basically works like a stiffer QR. Flip the arm around, unscrew it a few turns, and pull it out.
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Old 05-07-19, 03:52 PM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
I tried brifters. Didn't like them. Went back to friction barcons. Different strokes for different folks.
Thought I was the only one. My brifters experiment lasted fifteen years. It was a huge relief to be done with them. No barcons for me. Just regular dt shifters. And on one bike front shifting by suicide shifter. Best part about that one is the 'safety' contingent simply scatters and shuts up when they see me use it. They don't even try to browbeat me into being just exactly like them.
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Old 05-07-19, 03:52 PM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
That's not a universal thing. You might be able to get a different axle? Mine basically works like a stiffer QR. Flip the arm around, unscrew it a few turns, and pull it out.
That sounds a lot better than what I've got! But really, despite my posts on this I don't find that it's all that much of a big deal. And there are some things that I really like about thru-axles.

I've got one bike that has disk brakes with just a QR. That's not a great combo because it's very difficult to get the wheel correctly in the dropouts such that there's no disk rub, etc. Worse, the front skewer works itself loose over time so I have to remember to check that periodically.
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