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U.S.A made bikes

Old 05-25-19, 02:46 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
There is a rule to bike ownership???
I ride what I like and what fits me. Nationality has nothing to do with it.
Iíd like to buy American and make America great again.

I love Fuji Bicycles
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Old 05-25-19, 02:50 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
Always thought it pretty obvious, wherever the frame was built, is the country of origin. Although I think itís important, generally donít consider where the raw materials, or components come from. The Frame, and the way it is constructed, and by who, what, or where, is the most important, and the defining nature of a bike.
Tim
In todays market, I'd say who and where the frame is designed is more important than the location of manufacture. Any respectable manufacturer can put out a quality product, as long as it's a quality design to begin with.

As nice as say an American made Allied CF frame looks, I doubt it's higher quality than a Chinese Pinarello F whatever, or even my Chinese Ridley Fenix.
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Old 05-25-19, 03:04 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Wileyrat View Post
In todays market, I'd say who and where the frame is designed is more important than the location of manufacture. Any respectable manufacturer can put out a quality product, as long as it's a quality design to begin with.

As nice as say an American made Allied CF frame looks, I doubt it's higher quality than a Chinese Pinarello F whatever, or even my Chinese Ridley Fenix.
Maybe the 'who' is important in frame design, but 'where' that person resides isn't necessarily so.
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Old 05-25-19, 03:08 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Maybe the 'who' is important in frame design, but 'where' that person resides isn't necessarily so.
Not really, but Pinarello is still Italian and Ridley is still Belgian, despite their frames being made in another country.

That was the point I was trying to make.
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Old 05-25-19, 03:27 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Iíd like to buy American and make America great again.

I love Fuji Bicycles
That's true. I've owned Hondas, and Toyotas that were made in America. All the Japanese, German, and Korean auto companies have assembly plants in the U.S. Bike frames are light enough that shipping is not an issue, so that is why many if not most are made in Asia now.
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Old 05-25-19, 05:59 PM
  #31  
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I dont consider my '88 Schwinn Premis that was made in Mississippi to be better than my '89 Novara Trionfo that was made in Japan just because it was made in the USA.
And for what its worth, though they are comparable in tier/level, the Japan frame is significantly better fabricated.

My '92 Cannondale touring frame isnt better than my Japan made Fuji touring frame from '90 just because it was made in the USA.


Where a frame is fabricated isnt nearly as important as HOW it is fabricated. The quality when it comes to clean up around joints, close tolerance levels for tube angles, etc is way more important to me than where the frame is built.


With that said, I would totally jump on a frame made in the US by some specific builders. But that's because of who specifically made the frames and admiration for their style(all would be steel).
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Old 05-25-19, 06:37 PM
  #32  
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Everybody should have pride in their own country
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Old 05-26-19, 08:28 AM
  #33  
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I did my first race on a 40 lb. US made Schwinn Continental. All the fast guys were on exotic Italians. My folks were nice enough to get me a new Legnano, which I still have. We traded the Continental in for the Legnano, +$175 cash back in 1964. I love the Legnano, but I still have a Schwinn Paramount on my bucket list as a "want". Maybe someday.
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Old 05-26-19, 06:50 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Wileyrat View Post
In todays market, I'd say who and where the frame is designed is more important than the location of manufacture. Any respectable manufacturer can put out a quality product, as long as it's a quality design to begin with.

As nice as say an American made Allied CF frame looks, I doubt it's higher quality than a Chinese Pinarello F whatever, or even my Chinese Ridley Fenix.
That sounds like you believe that these brands actually design bike frames and then tender out the contract to manufacture them but I think the reality is they are buying an existing design that has existing certification and they just make minor design tweaks or geometry changes and give a paint design to the actual factory. These factories aren't interested in full designs unless the importer is willing to spend serious money on each bike that would make them not competitive in the market place except for higher end bikes where you need innovation. The costs of testing and certifying new frames designs are huge in comparison to using an existing certified design from the manufacturer's portfolio of frame designs. It only makes commercial sense to do that for very high end bikes.

Also many of the existing designs have been improved over time, importers have fed back issues relating to the design and the factory has improved them. So called open mould carbon frames tend to be stronger and safer than new designs. Fuji-ta make something like 20 million bikes a year for mid-level bikes for many top brands, the factory, testing centre, painting rooms and design centre are state of the art. Robots make a large number of steel frames and they also make a huge amount of titanium, aluminium and carbon fibre frames. They are fully capable of designing their own bikes which they sell under their 'Battle' brand in the far east but the same designs are used for OEM customers in Europe and the USA etc.
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Old 05-26-19, 07:28 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
That sounds like you believe that these brands actually design bike frames and then tender out the contract to manufacture them but I think the reality is they are buying an existing design that has existing certification and they just make minor design tweaks or geometry changes and give a paint design to the actual factory.
Are you describing how internet "brands" operate? I can't see this being the case with major bike shop brands. Seems as if they differ in more than cosmetics. It's true we used to hear a lot about "open mold" bargains, but AFAIK nobody has actually come across a brand X bike that is identical to any Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, etc. What is "existing certification?"
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Old 05-26-19, 08:44 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
That sounds like you believe that these brands actually design bike frames and then tender out the contract to manufacture them but I think the reality is they are buying an existing design that has existing certification and they just make minor design tweaks or geometry changes and give a paint design to the actual factory. These factories aren't interested in full designs unless the importer is willing to spend serious money on each bike that would make them not competitive in the market place except for higher end bikes where you need innovation. The costs of testing and certifying new frames designs are huge in comparison to using an existing certified design from the manufacturer's portfolio of frame designs. It only makes commercial sense to do that for very high end bikes.

Also many of the existing designs have been improved over time, importers have fed back issues relating to the design and the factory has improved them. So called open mould carbon frames tend to be stronger and safer than new designs. Fuji-ta make something like 20 million bikes a year for mid-level bikes for many top brands, the factory, testing centre, painting rooms and design centre are state of the art. Robots make a large number of steel frames and they also make a huge amount of titanium, aluminium and carbon fibre frames. They are fully capable of designing their own bikes which they sell under their 'Battle' brand in the far east but the same designs are used for OEM customers in Europe and the USA etc.
So you really believe that the big brands that have their higher end frames made for them have no input on the design? Whatever.

Nice rant though.
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Old 05-26-19, 08:51 PM
  #37  
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100% american would be a 1 or 2 speed , freewheel or fixie , with brakes..

you need a parts list?
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Old 05-26-19, 09:55 PM
  #38  
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I have several bikes made by Schwinn that had most components, including the frame, made in the USA. These were all made in the Chicago factory (which I toured in the 60's) and were electroforged tanks.

Didn't Huffy and AMF make most of the parts of their bikes in the USA back in the day? These bikes, while 100% serviceable and "Made in the USA", were of lesser quality than the Schwinns of the time. This was reflected in their price.

All of these bikes had a much higher "Made in the USA" content than the higher end road bikes like the Paramount, or ANY new bike today.

Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Everybody should have pride in their own country
Why? I do not find the people of the country I happen to live in to be superior to the people of any other country. Nor do I find them automatically any more worthy of my trade.
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Old 05-27-19, 02:16 AM
  #39  
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I believe communities are better when people have pride in them, and a healthy amount of nationalism is no bad thing.

That doesn't mean I think a pair of scissors are better just because they have Made In England stamped on them.

There are various factors involved. I know straight off that the Taiwanese Sturmey Archer gear hubs are made to better standards than they were in England, and I don't feel it's any bad reflection on myself or the people on this island to say so.
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Old 05-27-19, 02:50 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Are you describing how internet "brands" operate? I can't see this being the case with major bike shop brands. Seems as if they differ in more than cosmetics. It's true we used to hear a lot about "open mold" bargains, but AFAIK nobody has actually come across a brand X bike that is identical to any Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, etc. What is "existing certification?"
Existing certification is if you buy an existing product that has already been fully tested and certified you have no additional costs to pay except for the factory door price for each frame, you can still alter geometry length and make small cosmetic variations and tweak geometry to the frame as long as not changing the structurally strength, tested in the certification. So typically a importer to avoid paying for completely re-designing a frame and paying a huge amount of money for testing that structurally new design would buy a frame with existing certification. Because of the different frame sizes quite a large number of frame sizes have to be tested for that certification but once tested the frame can be changed to suit different size riders or different riding dynamics without needing re-testing. These are pretty much the frames most brands use even the big brands where as new frame designs would be reserved for high end bikes with larger margins.

In the current issue of MBR in the UK many mountain bikes were tested for the £375 price point, many of the big brands refused to submit test bikes for this price point and those that did performed badly compared to the bikes that were bought directly from internet sellers and shop brand bikes. Not only did the big brand bikes get criticised for very poor components which is understandable as bikes in local bike shops cost more for the same components but also some of them were criticised for poor geometry, inferior handling. So you have a shop that basically has no design skills at all that simply approaches a far east manufacturer for a range of bikes with modern in fashion geometry and ends up with bikes that handles better than some of the big brands. Surely that shows the design skills are in the far east.

We shouldn't confuse Giant with many other brands they are a full manufacturer with their own manufacturing facilities for frames, wheels and many other parts. They are not just an importer.

Also Specialized is jointly owned by Merida which is another proper manufacturer. However Cannondale is a brand of Dorel who are mainly an importer with some IP but they supply bikes to places like Walmart but also supply higher end bikes like Cannondale and they have used different factories at different times. It is more than likely Cannondale are using pre-existing certified frames at least for their entry level and mid level models I would of thought with higher end models being designed in-house.

I think you have to look at the marketing material of many brands and see much of it is nonsense like the way Cannondale gives fake names to it's aluminium rather than calling it what it is, it is not a company that is attempting to be honest with its customers.
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Old 05-27-19, 06:53 AM
  #41  
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I don't think anyone is disputing your claims are discussing bikes at the price point you're using for an example. Yeah, at that price point bikes are all pretty much the same.

Start looking at frames that are over 2000 dollars, euros, or pounds, and you better bet theres been individual corporate design elements that went into that frame.

That is the signature design elements that gives each manufacturer it's individuality.

Think why does Pinarello bother to patent protect the aero design elements of an F-10 frame if it were indistinguishable from every other asian made frame. Why is a Trek Madone so unique looking to everyone elses aero frame if they're just another open mold CF design?

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Old 05-28-19, 07:48 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I believe communities are better when people have pride in them, and a healthy amount of nationalism is no bad thing.

That doesn't mean I think a pair of scissors are better just because they have Made In England stamped on them.

There are various factors involved. I know straight off that the Taiwanese Sturmey Archer gear hubs are made to better standards than they were in England, and I don't feel it's any bad reflection on myself or the people on this island to say so.
Its kind of sad that the Taiwanese Sturmey Archer are better than the English hubs. Do you think that Brexit will improve the quality of English manufacturing and return those manufacturing jobs to the UK?
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Old 05-28-19, 08:39 AM
  #43  
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My US frame is a Waterford and they still build them today (old Schwinn race shop). If you're after carbon check out Allied in Little Rock AR.
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Old 05-28-19, 10:08 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
Existing certification is if you buy an existing product that has already been fully tested and certified you have no additional costs to pay except for the factory door price for each frame, you can still alter geometry length and make small cosmetic variations and tweak geometry to the frame as long as not changing the structurally strength, tested in the certification. So typically a importer to avoid paying for completely re-designing a frame and paying a huge amount of money for testing that structurally new design would buy a frame with existing certification. Because of the different frame sizes quite a large number of frame sizes have to be tested for that certification but once tested the frame can be changed to suit different size riders or different riding dynamics without needing re-testing. These are pretty much the frames most brands use even the big brands where as new frame designs would be reserved for high end bikes with larger margins.

In the current issue of MBR in the UK many mountain bikes were tested for the £375 price point, many of the big brands refused to submit test bikes for this price point and those that did performed badly compared to the bikes that were bought directly from internet sellers and shop brand bikes. Not only did the big brand bikes get criticised for very poor components which is understandable as bikes in local bike shops cost more for the same components but also some of them were criticised for poor geometry, inferior handling. So you have a shop that basically has no design skills at all that simply approaches a far east manufacturer for a range of bikes with modern in fashion geometry and ends up with bikes that handles better than some of the big brands. Surely that shows the design skills are in the far east.

We shouldn't confuse Giant with many other brands they are a full manufacturer with their own manufacturing facilities for frames, wheels and many other parts. They are not just an importer.

Also Specialized is jointly owned by Merida which is another proper manufacturer. However Cannondale is a brand of Dorel who are mainly an importer with some IP but they supply bikes to places like Walmart but also supply higher end bikes like Cannondale and they have used different factories at different times. It is more than likely Cannondale are using pre-existing certified frames at least for their entry level and mid level models I would of thought with higher end models being designed in-house.

I think you have to look at the marketing material of many brands and see much of it is nonsense like the way Cannondale gives fake names to it's aluminium rather than calling it what it is, it is not a company that is attempting to be honest with its customers.
Ok, so we should remove Giant and Specialized from the discussion per your post.

That means Trek, Cannondale, Jamis, Canyon, Kona, Diamondback, etc etc are all using stock designs and making minor irrelevant tweaks to make them seem different? I get that this can be a thing- Take a front triangle mold and use a rear triangle mold then bam its a 'new' design even while already meeting the safety certification.
But so many of the bikes from these brands, regardless of price point, look entirely different.


Trek Isospeed- That isnt being used elsewhere...right? Kinda significant design element.
Cannondale thin stays and shaped tubing- are other brand's models being made with the same shaped tubes and stays?
Diamondback Haanjo carbon and aluminum frames look different than pretty much every other gravel bike with the top tube bend near the seat post.
Canyon CX frames have a similar but very different shape to the Hannjo as it is meant to make shouldering a bike easier. I dont see that design elsewhere.
Jamis' Renegade series just simply doesnt look like other bikes. I would be interested to hear what other bikes are made from the same molds(for carbon).

Lets not even get started on all the geometry differences within the same category. All the brands mentioned above have gravel bikes with geometry that is wildly different. Are you saying they have have the manufacturer decide the geometry during in-house design and the brands just roll with it? That would suck to find out you got a bike with some wonked out trail or whatever and not be able to change it.
STA, HTA, fork rake, top tube slope, chainstay length, tubing diameter, tubing shape(top tube, down tube, chain stays, seat stays) are all very much different on bikes i see in the same category- and this applies to large as well as smaller brands.


So at what point does a frame become unique- 4 changes to it? 10 changes to it? Never? Please let us know.


Whats funny about all this is that for decades when all frames were steel, frames looked quite similar with minor personal touches making the frames stick out. How drop outs were filed to the stays, lug design, an internal routed brake cable, seat stay cap shape- these were how frames could stand out- small but significant as those things told a story of time spent on a frame.
Miyata made frames for their name and for Univega. Panasonic made frames for their name, Schwinn, and Raleigh. I wouldnt call a Schwinn contract build bike a Panasonic bike because they had distinct differences at the same price point.



Apparently the more technology has advanced for frame material, the less frames are viewed as individual. odd.

I am always interested in this stuff and would love to see side by side examples of how frames from one global brand are the same as frames from another global brand in shape and geometry.
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Old 05-28-19, 11:03 AM
  #45  
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this is a very educational and intriguing discussion.
Thanks.
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Old 05-28-19, 01:47 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Its kind of sad that the Taiwanese Sturmey Archer are better than the English hubs. Do you think that Brexit will improve the quality of English manufacturing and return those manufacturing jobs to the UK?
Laws are one of the biggest factors, namely the effects on market forces. Whilst some people believe in heavy governing, fact is that market forces are like water penetrating leaks. If you heave a hole somewhere it will act as a gateway, and business works that way along with any other motivation - meaning, business happens where there's a market for it.

Here in Britain, we lost our car industry to foreign companies because our infrastructure wasn't adequately shaped to compete anymore. But all was not lost, because we had laws restricting Japanese manufacturers importing cars here. So what did they do? Built factories here - they could sell as many cars as they liked, then...

Today, and things aren't so rosy, and for the same reasons. Honda are quitting the UK because it no longer makes economical sense to stay. Our steel industry is on it's knees because, unlike the USA, we failed to restrict cheap Chinese steel.

Tens of thousands of jobs change hands on a whim, when the condition of market forces guide business. And at the moment, SunRace (who own Sturmey Archer) have no incentive to bring production here.
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Old 05-28-19, 06:52 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Everybody should have pride in their own country
I have pride in my planet, floating there like a warm little blue jewel in space. I occasionally have pride in my species.
Countries are ephemeral - 250 years ago, the US wasnít a country. 250 years from now, itíll likely be a different country, for better or worse. I was born in one country, grew up in another, and have made my home in a third. Which is my country? My point is, countries are artificial constructs, but the one constant is the rock which we all share, regardless of our individual countries

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Old 05-28-19, 07:29 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I dont consider my '88 Schwinn Premis that was made in Mississippi to be better than my '89 Novara Trionfo that was made in Japan just because it was made in the USA.
And for what its worth, though they are comparable in tier/level, the Japan frame is significantly better fabricated.
That applies more to 80s bikes than more modern bicycles, although there are outliers. Manufacturing has gotten better for US made bikes and worse for many off-shore bikes...depending on the level of bike, of course.

My '92 Cannondale touring frame isnt better than my Japan made Fuji touring frame from '90 just because it was made in the USA.
I would have to disagree. My Cannondale touring bike is a far better bike than my Miyata or my daughterís Fuji touring bike. The design is far better and the ride quality (at least compared to the Miyata) is vastly better. The same is true for my Moots YBB, my Dean mountain bike and my Dean road bike. Each one shines when it comes to performance and ride quality.

Where a frame is fabricated isnt nearly as important as HOW it is fabricated. The quality when it comes to clean up around joints, close tolerance levels for tube angles, etc is way more important to me than where the frame is built.
On that we can agree. However, most all US made frames are going to be of a far higher quality than anything made for the mass produced market because most of them are either custom made or very small runs.
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Old 05-28-19, 07:52 PM
  #49  
ramzilla
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Trek made some nice bikes in the USA back in the late 70's & early 80's. (Who knows where they're made now). ps..... this 1982 model has been modified with all new stuff.

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Old 05-28-19, 08:43 PM
  #50  
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My bike was made in my zip code.
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