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Why did lowrider rear racks stopped being popular?

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Why did lowrider rear racks stopped being popular?

Old 05-20-19, 09:05 PM
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curbowman
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Why did lowrider rear racks stopped being popular?

I would like to know why most modern rear racks mount the panniers so high on the rear wheel.

Older European and Japanese expedition bikes had lowriders on both the front and rear wheels, which helps to keep the center of gravity closer to the ground, thus improving stability in a heavily loaded bike.

Is there a reason why these lower racks are not more popular among cycle tourers of today?


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Old 05-20-19, 09:09 PM
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Jim Blackburn did a study in the '70s for his front lowriders and one of the configurations was with low rear bags that turned out to be not as stable as high (standard) rear mounted bags. However, I suspect that the low rear panniers were considered less aesthetically pleasing than the high. Practically speaking, heel strike might be an issue.

I like that the Bridgestone above is said to have a Huret Albeit rear derailleur. Probably an Allvit.

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Old 05-21-19, 11:03 AM
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Ortleibs would probably drag on the ground if mounted to those racks. The wider part of the bags would also be closer to your heel on a lower rack, if the bags are tapered like Ortleibs.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
Jim Blackburn did a study in the '70s for his front lowriders and one of the configurations was with low rear bags that turned out to be not as stable as high (standard) rear mounted bags. However, I suspect that the low rear panniers were considered less aesthetically pleasing than the high. Practically speaking, heel strike might be an issue.

I like that the Bridgestone above is said to have a Huret Albeit rear derailleur. Probably an Allvit.
I was working in a shop and selling touring bikes when that study came out. If memory serves me, the study showed that low rider up front helped with handling but did not do so in the rear. There is little doubt that putting weight down low up front helps the bike's handling.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by curbowman View Post
I would like to know why...
It's called heel-strike: heel of your shoe bangs into bags when pedaling.

Solution is two-fold: make bags without lower leading corners, i.e Ortlieb and many others, and mount bags further rearwards and higher, accomplished by std above-the-fender height rack rails along with longer chainstays.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:27 AM
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These were taken from an early Blackburn catalog, which summarized his study. You also have to realize that his test runs were done with 80 lbs., when looking at the results. I apologize for the pictures, but that I only have photos of the catalog, not the actual catalog.






Last edited by Doug64; 05-21-19 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:49 AM
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I did not have the benefit of this study, but I came to conclusion that for handling, the weight should go LowRider front panniers first, medium sized rear panniers on regular racks next and strapped to the rear rack last. (All options include a small road tool bag under the seat.) I started my touring with a TA handlebar bag but came t the conclusion it was bad for handling and I do not believe my Mooney has ever seen it. Still have the bag but my Mooney just celebrated its 40th birthdays so it's been a while.

And my more recent discovery re: weight placement - weight under the DT doesn't count. You cannot feel it in the handling of the bike and cannot see it under the downtube so you benefit from the placebo effect. If you look at my avatar you will see a red bag under the DT. Sandals to relieve my feet at rest stops. That weight never crossed my mind as I muscled up the 14% grade of the photo (in a 42-17 gear).

Ben
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Old 05-21-19, 11:49 AM
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^Note how test 3 puts weight aft of the rear axle. I think that's part of the problem.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I did not have the benefit of this study, but I came to conclusion that for handling, the weight should go LowRider front panniers first, medium sized rear panniers on regular racks next and strapped to the rear rack last. (All options include a small road tool bag under the seat.) I started my touring with a TA handlebar bag but came t the conclusion it was bad for handling and I do not believe my Mooney has ever seen it. Still have the bag but my Mooney just celebrated its 40th birthdays so it's been a while.

And my more recent discovery re: weight placement - weight under the DT doesn't count. You cannot feel it in the handling of the bike and cannot see it under the downtube so you benefit from the placebo effect. If you look at my avatar you will see a red bag under the DT. Sandals to relieve my feet at rest stops. That weight never crossed my mind as I muscled up the 14% grade of the photo (in a 42-17 gear).

Ben
It's super easy to overload a handlebar bag, as I've learned, but for very light stuff (maps, candy, chips, etc.), they're pretty nice. 🙂
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Old 05-21-19, 12:12 PM
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They were French, but the Japanese liked French Cyclocamping setups
so you can build one from Nitto products, too..

Bikes are usually sold Bare,, how someone will accessorize their bike a choice ,.

usually made up from stuff the shop has on hand..

But now with the Internet and International shipping you can out fit your bike as you please..





NB: In The USA they were Never "Popular".. they were esoteric & rare..







....

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Old 05-21-19, 02:40 PM
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In the back on the drive side, maybe a Huret Allvit would function just fine with a pannier hanging against it. The part that would be pressing on the pannier does not move in and out. And taht was a friction derailleur, so if the hanger got bent, it would not cause any problems with the possible exception of a chain in the spokes, but the bikes sold with that derailleur all had spoke protectors.
VeloBase.com - Component: Huret Allvit

But if you had a pannier hanging that low, most modern derailleurs would not work well on the smaller sprockets with a pannier hanging against them. The pannier would be pressing on part of the derailleur that moves in and out.

I could easily hang panniers lower without a problem on my Rohloff bike, there is no derailleur. See photo, the panniers are just a bit below axle level with Tubus Logo rear rack.

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Old 05-21-19, 03:08 PM
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Dual low-riders and a Martini shaker. Cool baby!





Getting ready for a bike tour?

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Old 05-21-19, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Dual low-riders and a Martini shaker. Cool baby!



Getting ready for a bike tour?
if those three guys were getting ready for a bike tour, they'd need to buy some of these--

https://www.ebay.com/bhp/rat-trap-pedals
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Old 05-21-19, 05:25 PM
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Those guys look like they're intoxicated or something. 😎😉
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Old 05-21-19, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
^Note how test 3 puts weight aft of the rear axle. I think that's part of the problem.
Kind of have to be mounted that way. Take a look at the pictures in curbow’s post. The panniers are way behind the axle.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:37 AM
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Thank you all for your replies! I hadn't noticed the fact that rear lowrider racks put the weight behind the rear axle. That's a classic recipe for sluggish behavior on any vehicle. And clearance for the rear derailleur is also a desirable thing to have.
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Old 05-22-19, 09:24 AM
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Even with a truck or a van if you put too much weight behind the rear axle it gets squirrelly.

OTOH, I had a Carradice Camper bag (20 liter, I think) and found that putting lots of weight almost right under my butt was a pretty good place to carry the weight.
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Old 05-22-19, 09:33 AM
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To make a long story really short, four years ago I bought a pair of Carradry panniers to use for a specific trip because of their greater volume than the Ortliebs I have always used. But for reasons unrelated to the panniers, that trip did not happen. Since then every trip I went on I thought about using them and for one reason or other I kept using my Ortliebs. But I am planning to use the Carradry on my next trip for the first time. It would be on my Rohloff bike, so if they hung too low for a derailleur fitted bike, that would not be a problem.

The paper bag in the photo was wrapped around a 10 pound brick intended to simulate the weight of food on the bike for a test ride. I cropped the photo to just show the panniers on the bike. Rack is a Racktime Addit, not the Tubus Logo that I had in the other photo.

You can see that they hang much lower than most other panniers do. With that rack and pannier combination, I would imagine that some derailleur bikes could have a problem with the pannier pressing on the rear derailleur when in higher gears (smaller cassette sprockets). The Addit rack has a lower bar to hang the panniers from, if I used a conventional rack where the panniers hang from the top then the panniers would hang a few inches higher.

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Old 05-23-19, 06:13 AM
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On the low-mount rear racks I've seen, usually the old ones of Japanese origin, the bag portion was splayed outward toward the bottom to aim the bag away from the rear derailleur.
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Old 05-23-19, 10:32 AM
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you got two options at least to remedy the bag rubbing on the derailler.

1) install one of them wire-cage derailler protector thingies that mount at the dropout.

2) switch to a rack designed for bikes with disc brakes. mine moves the rear of the pannier a full 4cm from the chainstay, just enough to clear the derailler in the fully out position.

assuming some flex from the pannier might cause rubbing in bumpy terrain, should be easy enough to fashion a small plastic protector to mount on the rack to keep the bottom of the bag from hitting. prolly not needed as i rarely (~never) use the wee, tiny cogs anyways.
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Old 05-23-19, 02:23 PM
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Echoing 19th posts , do what the French constructeurs did,
the lowriding Rear bag support angled outward so never came in contact ..






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Old 05-23-19, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by curbowman View Post
I would like to know why most modern rear racks mount the panniers so high on the rear wheel.

Older European and Japanese expedition bikes had lowriders on both the front and rear wheels, which helps to keep the center of gravity closer to the ground, thus improving stability in a heavily loaded bike.

Is there a reason why these lower racks are not more popular among cycle tourers of today?

When you use 'popular', do you mean you see them less frequently on bikes or they are no longer being sold at bike shops?
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Old 05-24-19, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Even with a truck or a van if you put too much weight behind the rear axle it gets squirrelly.

OTOH, I had a Carradice Camper bag (20 liter, I think) and found that putting lots of weight almost right under my butt was a pretty good place to carry the weight.
Same. I use a Carradice Super C (23L) saddlebag and even when loaded pretty heavily it does not seem to influence handling all that much.
I think my next tour is going to be 2x Ortlieb 20L on front lowriders + saddlebag 23L + 17L porteur bag if I ever need that much space.
I'll probably replace the Ortliebs with 2x 15L front rollers as 70L should be more than enough for some self-sufficient touring.
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Old 06-07-19, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MarcusT View Post
When you use 'popular', do you mean you see them less frequently on bikes or they are no longer being sold at bike shops?
Maybe BOTH is the right answer. Most rear racks available at bike shops are the ones that mount the panniers beside the top of the rear wheel, so they are the ones seen more frequently.
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Old 06-07-19, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
do what the French constructeurs did,
the lowriding Rear bag support angled outward...
Yes, they do angle outwards in both front and rear, as seen in this picture:
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