A Bike is Not a Cell Phone - Upgrading to "Latest and Greatest" Syndrome
05-22-20, 03:01 PM
#26
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Warning: This thread is pointless and is just me rambling about a thought that's been rolling around in my head for a while 
Having just sold a handful of bikes recently, one of the most common bargaining tactics used by potential buyer's to get me to drop the price of my bikes was that the bikes were a couple of years old (ranging from 2013 to 2015 model years) and thus not worth anything. On more than one occasion, I'd get someone sending me a link to some "bicycle blue book" stating that my bikes were worthless because they weren't the latest and greatest. I learned to ignore those potential buyers and my bikes all sold for what I was asking... thanks to COVID-19
That got me thinking... are we as a society being duped into thinking that a bike that is a few years old is now a piece of outdated junk, just because we've become used to a 2 year obsolescence cycle for electronic goods? (I.e. "Moore's Law" has had a pretty big role in people buying a new mobile phone or computer every 2 years because that's about how long it takes before a new, much faster model is invented.) Unless you're planning on buying a bike with SRAM eTap, Shimano Di2, or some other electronic components group, the entire rest of the bike is not electronic and not subject to radical improvements from year to year.
I often think manufacturers just introduce new models with new marketing hype to convince us that the newer model is radically better than the old when it potentially is not. For example, I'm still wondering why Shimano created the Ultegra R8000 group set when it's hardly a departure from the 6800 group set. Both are 11 speed and both work just fine. It's my opinion that used bikes with Ultegra 6800 are a great value because they're perceived as being "yesterday's news" but work just as good as the new R8000 bikes.
While there certainly are incremental advances and improvements in bikes over the years, I personally think that one ought to really consider if you really need the latest model bike or if you just want it. There's nothing wrong with either, but if you can convince yourself that you don't need a brand new bike, you can save yourself a lot of money. Not only that, bicycles typically hold their value worse than cars do... once you ride the bike away from the LBS, you'll have a hard time selling it for anything near what you paid for it (well, excluding our current bizarro-world COVID-19 bike shortage.)
Anywho... your thoughts? Are bikes that are more than a few years old worthy of the scrap heap? Is buying a brand new bike a psychological gain or a good idea? Should we all buy a new bike every two years to keep up-to-date along with our iPhones and Android phones?
Note: I currently ride a 2020 Trek Domane SL7, so I'm a little hypocritical when it comes to my argument that one doesn't need a new bike. However, in my defense, I did buy it used for substantial cost savings... I would've stuck with my 2015 Domane had the deal not come along.
Having just sold a handful of bikes recently, one of the most common bargaining tactics used by potential buyer's to get me to drop the price of my bikes was that the bikes were a couple of years old (ranging from 2013 to 2015 model years) and thus not worth anything. On more than one occasion, I'd get someone sending me a link to some "bicycle blue book" stating that my bikes were worthless because they weren't the latest and greatest. I learned to ignore those potential buyers and my bikes all sold for what I was asking... thanks to COVID-19
That got me thinking... are we as a society being duped into thinking that a bike that is a few years old is now a piece of outdated junk, just because we've become used to a 2 year obsolescence cycle for electronic goods? (I.e. "Moore's Law" has had a pretty big role in people buying a new mobile phone or computer every 2 years because that's about how long it takes before a new, much faster model is invented.) Unless you're planning on buying a bike with SRAM eTap, Shimano Di2, or some other electronic components group, the entire rest of the bike is not electronic and not subject to radical improvements from year to year.
I often think manufacturers just introduce new models with new marketing hype to convince us that the newer model is radically better than the old when it potentially is not. For example, I'm still wondering why Shimano created the Ultegra R8000 group set when it's hardly a departure from the 6800 group set. Both are 11 speed and both work just fine. It's my opinion that used bikes with Ultegra 6800 are a great value because they're perceived as being "yesterday's news" but work just as good as the new R8000 bikes.
While there certainly are incremental advances and improvements in bikes over the years, I personally think that one ought to really consider if you really need the latest model bike or if you just want it. There's nothing wrong with either, but if you can convince yourself that you don't need a brand new bike, you can save yourself a lot of money. Not only that, bicycles typically hold their value worse than cars do... once you ride the bike away from the LBS, you'll have a hard time selling it for anything near what you paid for it (well, excluding our current bizarro-world COVID-19 bike shortage.)
Anywho... your thoughts? Are bikes that are more than a few years old worthy of the scrap heap? Is buying a brand new bike a psychological gain or a good idea? Should we all buy a new bike every two years to keep up-to-date along with our iPhones and Android phones?
Note: I currently ride a 2020 Trek Domane SL7, so I'm a little hypocritical when it comes to my argument that one doesn't need a new bike. However, in my defense, I did buy it used for substantial cost savings... I would've stuck with my 2015 Domane had the deal not come along.
oldest ti 1995ish bianchi and besides a few less cogs.
both great bikes. besides that initial new bike smell.
i see no reason to buy new.....
05-22-20, 03:17 PM
#28
South Carolina Ed
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Upgradeitis is people succumbing to delusions that their life will be better after the next gratuitous expenditure
05-22-20, 03:17 PM
#29
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05-22-20, 03:52 PM
#30
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My cars are 19 and 48 years old, my phone is ~4 years old, and for ~$50 I can replace the battery, which will buy me another few years, until I can no longer get iOS support or upgrades. I replaced my computer a couple of years ago when the old laptop battery started to crap out and it started to drown under the weight of ever-more-hungry OS upgrades. My bikes are 20 and 25 years old. Somewhere in the last decade, I lost interest in having the latest and greatest - back in 2003 I had a lightly used 2000 frame with modern (for then) Chorus 10 components. Now in 2020, I still have the same frame and the same Chorus 10 drivetrain, and I only replace/upgrade when something wears out. I have enough parts to run 10sp for at least a few more years, but I acknowledge that at some point the difficulty in finding NOS replacements will likely push me toward upgrading to 11- or 12sp. That being said, I have a hankering for a new lighter wheel set, but I'm ambivalent, as my current wheels, while old and heavy, are perfectly functional - sometimes it sucks to be a curmudgeon, but it saves a lot of money 
05-22-20, 04:45 PM
#31
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For a while new cell phones were obviously better than the 2yo model. That's not really happening any more. The numbers keep going up but they don't matter, screen size is just a fashion and its resolution is sufficient to the eyeball, the cameras are sharp enough, the data rate is fast enough, the software features are not dependent on the model, and so on.
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05-22-20, 07:37 PM
#32
Canadian eh?
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As I work in the "cellphone" industry, I've been fortunate to have the latest and greatest for the last 10 years (professionally) and several years prior (as a hobby). The technology (especially the cameras) has certainly come a long way.
05-22-20, 08:20 PM
#33
Senior Member
https://www.theproscloset.com/produc...dium-bike-2007
The bike I most enjoyed is above. It would 13 years old today, but thinking about it’s qualities the reason I loved it was that it fit me perfectly. I felt that I could steer that bike with my mind...I actually used 28s on the rear so even by today’s standards it was capable. So, yeah, we don’t need new things, but I can’t say that I regret owning the other bikes that replaced it. It’s all a journey...
The bike I most enjoyed is above. It would 13 years old today, but thinking about it’s qualities the reason I loved it was that it fit me perfectly. I felt that I could steer that bike with my mind...I actually used 28s on the rear so even by today’s standards it was capable. So, yeah, we don’t need new things, but I can’t say that I regret owning the other bikes that replaced it. It’s all a journey...
05-22-20, 08:38 PM
#34
Senior Member
Just because a product is newer doesn't mean that it is better. Adding another cog (10 to 11 speeds) produces marginal tiny gains, but putting the shift cables under the bar tape caused a deterioration of shift quality that is only mitigated through premium low-friction cable housings.
When I talk about Dura-Ace 7800, I'm not referring to shifters that have been raced in criteriums and crashed 20 times, and left with sticky 10-year old cables and housings. I'm talking about relatively fresh stuff - like for like.
05-22-20, 09:22 PM
#35
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05-22-20, 09:49 PM
#36
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I'm a Campy only guy and Campy has been first with 10, 11 and 12 speed road bikes, so it's easier to keep up. If you buy a 2020 Shimano 11 speed bike, it will be old news next year. I got two 2020 Campy Chorus groups last July when they first became available. I paid significantly less than an 11 speed Chorus group, I bought in 2018.
Unless a new group offers a major change, I wouldn't worry about having the latest. Changing from 11 to 12 was a big deal for me, because I really needed the new 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette for the mountains that I ride. SRAM AXS costs twice as much and has less low gear and poor spacing with their 46/33 and 10-33. A 44/31 crank would be needed to match my gearing range and the spacing of sprockets would still be less desirable. No thanks.
Unless a new group offers a major change, I wouldn't worry about having the latest. Changing from 11 to 12 was a big deal for me, because I really needed the new 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette for the mountains that I ride. SRAM AXS costs twice as much and has less low gear and poor spacing with their 46/33 and 10-33. A 44/31 crank would be needed to match my gearing range and the spacing of sprockets would still be less desirable. No thanks.
Perhaps but sometimes we just like having nicer, newer things since we work and earn them; doesn't mean we expect out life to be better though maybe it will be. I upgraded my steel frame to carbon this spring, I do feel that my road cycling life is better; it fits better, feels better and is more fun to ride making me happier to hop on and go. Newer can be better.
05-22-20, 11:05 PM
#37
Non omnino gravis
Isn't buying the latest-and-greatest simply to satisfy the butt dyno the pinnacle in chasing marginal gains?
Remember-- to someone, any bike with more than 10 speeds on it, or having anything other than friction shifters (on the downtube, natch) will forever be "new fangled."
I personally can't muster up the energy to care how much money other people spend or what they spend it on.
Remember-- to someone, any bike with more than 10 speeds on it, or having anything other than friction shifters (on the downtube, natch) will forever be "new fangled."
I personally can't muster up the energy to care how much money other people spend or what they spend it on.
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05-23-20, 03:36 AM
#38
Senior Member
Even if this weren't the case, though, it's a necessary consequence of how markets work. When competitors compete for mindshare, if you're not fighting forward, you're slipping back. This should be an easy concept for road cyclists to grasp, since it's exactly what happens in a peloton.
are we as a society being duped
No matter what type of product you're talking about, marketing folks will always pose everything as a huge gain. Ignore any steps back, mask any steps sideways as an improvement by emphasizing any aspect of the step that sounds positive. If information about a product doesn't convey an inspiring narrative, tell an inspiring narrative rather than convey information. This is normal stuff.
Are bikes that are more than a few years old worthy of the scrap heap?
Not to mention, even if they know they can trust you, they have no reason not to haggle.
A road bicycle is an extension of the body. A road bicycle is not a financial investment. When you buy a road bicycle, do so because you want to ride it; do not expect to recover a large portion of the purchase price upon ejection from the stable.
You are correct that a bicycle is not a cell phone. This is obvious because, if you try to fit your bicycle into a jersey pocket at the start of a ride, there will be trouble.
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05-23-20, 02:40 PM
#39
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Assuming that was true, it sure seems to have resolved itself based on the many under the tape routed shifters I have worked on over the last 4 years. Probably 15 different bikes with varying group levels from Ultegra down to Sora. None had housing that was visibly chewed up and none had cables that were frayed.
Perhaps a relatively small sample size, sure, but certainly larger than most who just speak in generalizations.
My under the tape routed shifters are 11 speed and shift smoothly, fast, and cable maintenance simply hasn't existed for over 2 years on each bike. If they are being chewed up internally, I sure can't tell so it effectively doesn't matter.
Your issue seems to be applicable to shifters that haven't been made in years.
05-23-20, 03:14 PM
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05-23-20, 09:44 PM
#41
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I haven't bought a new bike since 1976. I'm perfect happy to buy good used bikes with so-so cosmetics, as long as they're mechanically sound.
Some electronics need to be replaced often just to keep up. I still have and like my old iPhone 4s but it finally became too limited by 2017 and I got a middling grade Android phone that I'm about to replace. It was good for a couple of years but the 16 GB storage turned out to be inadequate for all the apps I want. I had to delete a bunch of news apps and other useful stuff.
But with bikes, the engine is always my main limitation. If I can't do it on my early 1990s Trek OCLV, I probably can't do it any better with a spankin' new $10k bike.
I might make an exception for a unique bike, more of a rolling sculpture type thing, if I won the lotto.
Some electronics need to be replaced often just to keep up. I still have and like my old iPhone 4s but it finally became too limited by 2017 and I got a middling grade Android phone that I'm about to replace. It was good for a couple of years but the 16 GB storage turned out to be inadequate for all the apps I want. I had to delete a bunch of news apps and other useful stuff.
But with bikes, the engine is always my main limitation. If I can't do it on my early 1990s Trek OCLV, I probably can't do it any better with a spankin' new $10k bike.
I might make an exception for a unique bike, more of a rolling sculpture type thing, if I won the lotto.
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05-23-20, 10:37 PM
#42
Senior Member
My under the tape routed shifters are 11 speed and shift smoothly, fast, and cable maintenance simply hasn't existed for over 2 years on each bike. If they are being chewed up internally, I sure can't tell so it effectively doesn't matter.
Your issue seems to be applicable to shifters that haven't been made in years.
Your issue seems to be applicable to shifters that haven't been made in years.
05-24-20, 07:08 AM
#43
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Wouldn't it be nice if Shimano offered something like a "Dura Ace Classic" group? Silver, based on 7800 but with compact crank option and RD that would accept the now common 32T cassette. Keep it 10 speed so folks could use their old wheels. Dreaming....
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05-24-20, 07:42 AM
#44
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I'm a Campy only guy and Campy has been first with 10, 11 and 12 speed road bikes, so it's easier to keep up. If you buy a 2020 Shimano 11 speed bike, it will be old news next year. I got two 2020 Campy Chorus groups last July when they first became available. I paid significantly less than an 11 speed Chorus group, I bought in 2018.
Unless a new group offers a major change, I wouldn't worry about having the latest. Changing from 11 to 12 was a big deal for me, because I really needed the new 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette for the mountains that I ride. SRAM AXS costs twice as much and has less low gear and poor spacing with their 46/33 and 10-33. A 44/31 crank would be needed to match my gearing range and the spacing of sprockets would still be less desirable. No thanks.
Unless a new group offers a major change, I wouldn't worry about having the latest. Changing from 11 to 12 was a big deal for me, because I really needed the new 48/32 crank and 11-34 cassette for the mountains that I ride. SRAM AXS costs twice as much and has less low gear and poor spacing with their 46/33 and 10-33. A 44/31 crank would be needed to match my gearing range and the spacing of sprockets would still be less desirable. No thanks.
05-24-20, 08:30 AM
#45
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05-24-20, 09:24 AM
#46
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05-24-20, 12:24 PM
#47
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As I've gotten older, I've found that while I like the idea of upgrading just as I always have, the process of doing so for any high value item is just so inherently stressful that it's just a turn off to actually execute an upgrade on stuff anymore. Worrying that the product is going to come through defect free or whatever. Buy a new Macbook Pro but don't you dare look at the forums or you'll be analyzing for 454 things wrong with it you would've never even thought about or noticed...
But like at least with a bike, assuming it comes through with no cosmetic or mechanical issues, even after getting past that hurdle, it seems to take such a long time to get it really dialed in that once you finally do, at least for me, I'm glad to be done stressing about it and having so much of my time circle the drain playing/adjusting/testing/stressing/being indecisive and am glad to just finally be able to ride it and enjoy it.
So in my case, I have a 2017 rim brake road bike that can't take tires wider than 25mm. Super outdated probably even by 2017 standards, but I knew that when I bought it and I just don't care, and I'll probably be riding that for the next 15 years before I'm ready to deal with the process of buying something new.
And my 2016 Sirrus hybrid, sure it might be nice to trade it in on a Canyon Grail gravel bike, but do I really want to go through the headaches and hassle, especially for a bike that isn't really that much different in usability (who really says you can't ride a bog standard hybrid on gravel?)? I don't worry about my Sirrus or how it's set up anymore, I can just get on it and ride it knowing it's dialed in, and there's serious value there for me.
But like at least with a bike, assuming it comes through with no cosmetic or mechanical issues, even after getting past that hurdle, it seems to take such a long time to get it really dialed in that once you finally do, at least for me, I'm glad to be done stressing about it and having so much of my time circle the drain playing/adjusting/testing/stressing/being indecisive and am glad to just finally be able to ride it and enjoy it.
So in my case, I have a 2017 rim brake road bike that can't take tires wider than 25mm. Super outdated probably even by 2017 standards, but I knew that when I bought it and I just don't care, and I'll probably be riding that for the next 15 years before I'm ready to deal with the process of buying something new.
And my 2016 Sirrus hybrid, sure it might be nice to trade it in on a Canyon Grail gravel bike, but do I really want to go through the headaches and hassle, especially for a bike that isn't really that much different in usability (who really says you can't ride a bog standard hybrid on gravel?)? I don't worry about my Sirrus or how it's set up anymore, I can just get on it and ride it knowing it's dialed in, and there's serious value there for me.
05-24-20, 05:33 PM
#48
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I have a neighbor, a few blocks away, that always has the latest car. Whenever a new hot car comes out I see it in his driveway. Everything from when the PT Cruiser and new T-Bird, to the latest Camaro, Shelby Mustang and now there's a modified C7.
I asked him and he gets short term leases, like 6-8 months.
He had a Lexus RX with the plates "IMKEPNIT", but 2 years later there was a Land Rover with those plates.
Some people have to have the latest and i'm sure there will be a C8 as soon as they are being delivered.
For me, I keep things for a long time.... cars for 10+ years, in fact I still have my first, a 1974 VW Beetle.
I have significant miles on my 2015 Emonda. I know exactly what it's limits are and what i'm capable of doing. It's good and reliable friend that's never failed. There would have to be something significant for me to spend the type of coin it would take to replace it.
I asked him and he gets short term leases, like 6-8 months.
He had a Lexus RX with the plates "IMKEPNIT", but 2 years later there was a Land Rover with those plates.
Some people have to have the latest and i'm sure there will be a C8 as soon as they are being delivered.
For me, I keep things for a long time.... cars for 10+ years, in fact I still have my first, a 1974 VW Beetle.
I have significant miles on my 2015 Emonda. I know exactly what it's limits are and what i'm capable of doing. It's good and reliable friend that's never failed. There would have to be something significant for me to spend the type of coin it would take to replace it.
05-24-20, 07:07 PM
#49
Full Member
I still prefer my 12 years old BMC promachine SLC01 to my brand new BMC roadmachine 01 One.
cost of the frame $4000
there was less cracking of the frame, less problem with the seatpost clamp, less problem with the integrated headset of the fork.
cost of the frame: $7900
cost of the frame $4000
there was less cracking of the frame, less problem with the seatpost clamp, less problem with the integrated headset of the fork.
cost of the frame: $7900
05-25-20, 11:25 AM
#50
Full Member
Warning: This thread is pointless and is just me rambling about a thought that's been rolling around in my head for a while
Having just sold a handful of bikes recently, one of the most common bargaining tactics used by potential buyer's to get me to drop the price of my bikes was that the bikes were a couple of years old (ranging from 2013 to 2015 model years) and thus not worth anything. On more than one occasion, I'd get someone sending me a link to some "bicycle blue book" stating that my bikes were worthless because they weren't the latest and greatest. I learned to ignore those potential buyers and my bikes all sold for what I was asking... thanks to COVID-19
That got me thinking... are we as a society being duped into thinking that a bike that is a few years old is now a piece of outdated junk, just because we've become used to a 2 year obsolescence cycle for electronic goods? (I.e. "Moore's Law" has had a pretty big role in people buying a new mobile phone or computer every 2 years because that's about how long it takes before a new, much faster model is invented.) Unless you're planning on buying a bike with SRAM eTap, Shimano Di2, or some other electronic components group, the entire rest of the bike is not electronic and not subject to radical improvements from year to year.
I often think manufacturers just introduce new models with new marketing hype to convince us that the newer model is radically better than the old when it potentially is not. For example, I'm still wondering why Shimano created the Ultegra R8000 group set when it's hardly a departure from the 6800 group set. Both are 11 speed and both work just fine. It's my opinion that used bikes with Ultegra 6800 are a great value because they're perceived as being "yesterday's news" but work just as good as the new R8000 bikes.
While there certainly are incremental advances and improvements in bikes over the years, I personally think that one ought to really consider if you really need the latest model bike or if you just want it. There's nothing wrong with either, but if you can convince yourself that you don't need a brand new bike, you can save yourself a lot of money. Not only that, bicycles typically hold their value worse than cars do... once you ride the bike away from the LBS, you'll have a hard time selling it for anything near what you paid for it (well, excluding our current bizarro-world COVID-19 bike shortage.)
Anywho... your thoughts? Are bikes that are more than a few years old worthy of the scrap heap? Is buying a brand new bike a psychological gain or a good idea? Should we all buy a new bike every two years to keep up-to-date along with our iPhones and Android phones?
Note: I currently ride a 2020 Trek Domane SL7, so I'm a little hypocritical when it comes to my argument that one doesn't need a new bike. However, in my defense, I did buy it used for substantial cost savings... I would've stuck with my 2015 Domane had the deal not come along.
Having just sold a handful of bikes recently, one of the most common bargaining tactics used by potential buyer's to get me to drop the price of my bikes was that the bikes were a couple of years old (ranging from 2013 to 2015 model years) and thus not worth anything. On more than one occasion, I'd get someone sending me a link to some "bicycle blue book" stating that my bikes were worthless because they weren't the latest and greatest. I learned to ignore those potential buyers and my bikes all sold for what I was asking... thanks to COVID-19
That got me thinking... are we as a society being duped into thinking that a bike that is a few years old is now a piece of outdated junk, just because we've become used to a 2 year obsolescence cycle for electronic goods? (I.e. "Moore's Law" has had a pretty big role in people buying a new mobile phone or computer every 2 years because that's about how long it takes before a new, much faster model is invented.) Unless you're planning on buying a bike with SRAM eTap, Shimano Di2, or some other electronic components group, the entire rest of the bike is not electronic and not subject to radical improvements from year to year.
I often think manufacturers just introduce new models with new marketing hype to convince us that the newer model is radically better than the old when it potentially is not. For example, I'm still wondering why Shimano created the Ultegra R8000 group set when it's hardly a departure from the 6800 group set. Both are 11 speed and both work just fine. It's my opinion that used bikes with Ultegra 6800 are a great value because they're perceived as being "yesterday's news" but work just as good as the new R8000 bikes.
While there certainly are incremental advances and improvements in bikes over the years, I personally think that one ought to really consider if you really need the latest model bike or if you just want it. There's nothing wrong with either, but if you can convince yourself that you don't need a brand new bike, you can save yourself a lot of money. Not only that, bicycles typically hold their value worse than cars do... once you ride the bike away from the LBS, you'll have a hard time selling it for anything near what you paid for it (well, excluding our current bizarro-world COVID-19 bike shortage.)
Anywho... your thoughts? Are bikes that are more than a few years old worthy of the scrap heap? Is buying a brand new bike a psychological gain or a good idea? Should we all buy a new bike every two years to keep up-to-date along with our iPhones and Android phones?
Note: I currently ride a 2020 Trek Domane SL7, so I'm a little hypocritical when it comes to my argument that one doesn't need a new bike. However, in my defense, I did buy it used for substantial cost savings... I would've stuck with my 2015 Domane had the deal not come along.
Moore's Law is about technological advances and limitations and has nothing to do with why people upgrade their technology so often. What really happens is FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) syndrome. And that is the marketing side of the company, not the engineering function. If the advertising and PR constantly bombards you with the latest and greatest and how important it is to have it (referred to as an emotional appeal), there's a good chance you're going to get suckered into replacing a perfectly good product for a newer one (at a higher cost).
Companies do this all the time because they need to generate revenues which creates profits which allows a company to grow and pay people (especially execs) a lot more money.
Stating Moore's Law is why people always buy the latest and greatest is about the same as stating that Einstein's E=mC^2 is the reason we twice dropped atomic bombs on Japan in WWII
Specious logic, at best....Oh, and I am the original owner and rider of a 20+ yr. old Specialized Hard Rock mtb that I've kept and maintained and does just fine (tho, disc brakes are an interesting consideration for me
Cheers....
Last edited by stephr1; 05-25-20 at 11:29 AM.
