mstateglfr 

Sport touring. Audax. Club. Randonneuring.
All terms for road bikes with endurance bike features.

Lines were drawn decades ago.

Kontact 

Marketing is one of the things I've been talking about, and how it influences the product.

PeteHski

I’m not complaining, but you certainly appear to be.

Your replies to most genuine questions raised in this thread are just obvious deflections, leading to more and more confusion about what your point actually was in the first place.

My take is that this thread is nothing more than a thinly disguised, condescending lecture about “big bike” marketing and how so many riders have fallen for it. Imagine if someone started a thread along the lines of “what do road race bikes accomplish for you?” and then proceeded to waffle about how everyone should be riding a “standard” road bike. It would end up just like this train wreck.

Anyway you haven’t convinced me (or anyone else from what I’ve read) that endurance road bikes “fulfill an unnecessary function”. But since you only appear to want everyone to agree with your belief and then get upset whenever anyone questions it, I’ll leave you to it.

Turnin_Wrenches

I fully agree with the above statements... there is an increasing amount of overlap between endurance and gravel bikes. I used to think this was a good thing when gravel bikes were (more or less) relaxed road bikes with wider clearances for wider tires, and endurance bikes were just road bikes with relaxed geometry.

Over time it seems that gravel bike design (and function) is borrowing more heavily from mountain bikes, and endurance bike design is moving more into the realm of gravel. As a result, my options in 2023-24 for a "more relaxed, comfortable road bike" mostly live in the "road bike / race bike" category because many race bikes are also being dragged in the same direction as endurance bikes and gravel bikes (i.e. more comfort, bigger tires).

Has my overall selection for a "more comfortable road bike" been diminished? No, not really. In fact, I would argue that the selection of road bikes for the average amateur has improved significantly because one can now find a "comfortable road bike" by looking at "road bikes" .

PeteHski

I agree that the whole spectrum from road race through to gravel has shifted toward improved comfort and versatility without compromising on speed. I would probably be happy on most modern road, endurance or light gravel bikes with the appropriate tyre choice and fit. I considered bikes like the Look 765, which really does blur the lines between road and gravel. I also considered road bikes like the Cannondale Super Six Evo and Canyon Ultimate. But in the end I chose the Endurace, which has served me very well on all kinds of mixed terrain. There are certain events I’ve done where a more aero race bike would have been a better choice and climbing events where the Ultimate would have been marginally quicker. But overall my Endurace is the ideal single quiver bike for all my road riding.

eduskator

Chicken or the egg dilemma. Marketing's job is to adjust to the demand to make sure a company continues to be profitable and to grow, but Marketing can also create demand when a company is big enough and has a lot of influence. Apple is amongst one of them.

PeteHski

Even then the product has to be reasonably good to succeed. Not that any bike manufacturer has anything like the marketing influence of Apple.

Bah Humbug

Is there a way to "politely" say we disagree with you?

bbbean 

That's a different point than "a lot of riders want what is marketed to them that season rather than what would be a better choice."

Personally, I'm giving other cyclists the courtesy to assume they picked a bike because it suited their needs and preferences, even when they choose differently from what I would choose. People choose bikes for a lot of different reasons. "What bbbean thinks is best for them" is seldom in their list of top priorities.

Kontact 

No. You can personally disagree, but you don't get to represent a bunch of people.

Kontact 

You write this like the majority of responses in this thread weren't obtuse, combative and rude.

Trakhak

A customer walks into a bike shop. You saw him drive into the parking lot. You noticed that he has a hybrid his size on his bike rack. Maybe he's a bit overweight. Says he's looking for a 56-cm road bike, based on fitting algorithms he's used online. Budget around $4,000 to $5,000 or so.

(i) Do you, the bike shop employee, ask for some details on how he plans to use the bike, the better to steer him toward choices that are appropriate for his intended use case(s)?

(ii) Or do you, after a bit of chummy, you're-always-closing conversation, pull out a full-tilt, no-compromise race bike and ask, "Diners Club, BankAmeriCard, or Green Stamps?"

(iii) Or do you, if the customer happens to utter the word "endurance" as a modifier for the word "bike," proceed to lecture him at excruciating length, explaining in a plonking* tone that no such thing exists?

Confession time: at least twice that I can remember, my prejudices led me to enact choice iii.

The first time was when, in the brief period when the shop owner thought that buying a bunch of weightlifting equipment and sticking it into the second-floor showroom would be a surefire way to bank millions, I was told by a customer that he wanted to buy weights so that he could lose weight.

I explained, calmly at first and then heatedly, that anyone who told him lifting weights was a good way to lose weight was scamming him, that aerobic exercise was what he needed, etc. He left the store. Strange.

The second time was when a customer asked why all the road bikes used lugged construction instead of being welded. I patiently explained that lugs were needed because the thin-walled tubing would be damaged by being heated to welding temperatures. (Fillet brazing wasn't mentioned by either of us.)

He smiled and said that he'd been a welder for 20 years and was confident that he could weld thin tubing, no problem, that any bike frame he welded would hold up fine.

I "explained" why he was wrong. He kept smiling. The phone rang. I picked it up immediately and deliberately kept that conversation going while the welder stood there. He finally turned and left.

[Edit: forgot to mention that within two years of that conversation, many if not most of the road bikes on the sales floor were lugless.]

One of the few consolations of growing old is that I know that someday I'll forget that incident. One way or the other.

*Plonking: a term that I borrow from Stephen Potter's books Gamesmanship and Lifemanship, meaning, speaking in a blandly authoritative, mildly condescending tone that has an anesthetizing effect on the brain of the listener, who knows what's being said is crap but is temporarily incapable of reasoning why.

By the way, those Stephen Potter books (Lifemanship incorporates Gamesmanship and two sequels) are must-reads for any fans of Oxbridge humor such as that of Peter Cook, Monty Python's Flying Circus and the solo work of its members, David Mitchell, Richard Ayoade, etc.

Bah Humbug

... So what I clearly meant was "we who disagree with you". Why did you assume I meant "every single person"?

And to be crystal clear. what would be a phrasing that you would accept as "polite"?

jadmt

I just want to ride my bicycle....over good roads, over not so good roads, up hills and down hills...on short rides and on 100+ mile rides....I don't want to ride in the rain tho that is not fun...

Kontact 

Statements and questions that are on topic about bikes, aren't personal attacks on my "hidden motivations", aren't clearly sarcastic and don't need to be removed en masse by a moderator.

Kontact 

The answer is i.

seypat

Trakhak

Exactly.

PeteHski

You set the tone, others bit.

mstateglfr 

When responses with actual real examples and numbers that directly address your questions/complaints are ignored, and then ignored again and again, it shouldn't be surprising to see some sarcastic comments. This is especially true when you ignore the polite responses that include specifics, and you either again complain of the very thing you just complained about that was addressed, or you shift the goalposts and argue something related yet new.
Some sarcastic comments are inevitable...patience is not infinite in any of us.

Discuss your point in a manner in which you don't change your point and you do accept information that doesn't support your biases, and you will not see sarcasm.
I do love that you are claiming others to be obtuse. That's just straight unawareness.

john m flores 

This thread has more endurance than I do.

Bah Humbug

So first of all, is it only me specifically who doesn't get to represent a bunch of people? Because you seem to be speaking for a bunch of people in that first quote, but maybe I'm misinterpreting?

I'd still very much appreciate a sample phrasing that you'd accept rather than a general vagueness. Please and thank you.

tomato coupe

Yeah, this thread won’t end until the mods shut it down.

Trakhak

At least we can all now agree that "endurance bike," like "racing bike," is a valid subset of the category "road bike."

Eric F 

I don't think we all agree. As I understand it, Kontact's point in all this is that the "endurance" category is not valid.