Chain waxing question
01-10-24, 03:35 PM
#51
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While I agree that there is no need for a boiling water wash, there is also no need for the odorless mineral spirits step for subsequent waxing. The wax doesn’t get contaminated like oil based lubricants do. On subsequent waxings, the wax is the solvent and is all that is needed to clean the chain. Just drop it in molten wax and be done with it.
I just reviewed the “Silca system” video on Silca’s wax webpage and it shares the same problems with all the other “systems” for chain cleaning out there which I will address below. It has one major problem that I’m going to address before going any further. The presenter says to put the mineral spirits in an ultrasonic bath at 65°C (150°F). This is dumb and dangerous! The flash point of mineral spirits ranges from 38°C (100°F) to 60°C (140°F). It would be bad enough to heat a flammable material to over its flash point but ultrasonication agitates the solvent which is an efficient way to make more vapor. Mineral spirits is only slightly toxic so that’s less of a concern than making a very efficient fuel/air ratio. In other words, it’s a great way to set your house on fire! Don’t ultrasonicate solvents at all and especially not above their flash point!!!
It is overly complicated with unnecessary steps that are done for no reason. Mineral spirits is a degreaser and a damned good one! There is no need for any step past doing a mineral spirits wash. You can do 2 washes if you like but there really is no need. If you really have to do two steps, put the water based degreaser first, followed by a water rinse, followed by an alcohol chase, and then polish it off with mineral spirits. The reason for that particular order is to do any water based steps first because water and mineral spirits are incompatible. Water based degreasers have surfactants…soap to regular people…in them that changes the chemistry of water so that water can dissolve some water insoluble compounds. The amount of nonpolar material that can dissolve in a water based degreaser is limited to the carrying capacity of the surfactant in the water and is also limited by the amount of surfactant in the water. Diluting it reduces the carrying capacity.
That limited carrying capacity of a nonpolar compound also means that far more of the surfactant has to be used to do the same job. Think dish soap in a sink. At some point the bubbles go away which means that the soap..again, a surfactant…has glommed onto all the oil that it can and it needs more soap and fresh water. The volume of mineral spirits needed to do the same job is a tiny fraction of that needed for a water based degreaser .
The surfactant also has to be removed. If not removed the surfactant will sit on the metal doing what surfactants do…grabbing onto nonpolar compounds. Alcohol will remove some of it but it would be best to use clean water to flush which means more volume of cleaners needed…usually many times that of the initial degreaser mixture to remove it.
I’ll get into the procedure now. He says that the chain needs to be soaked overnight in mineral spirits. That is completely unnecessary. Degreasing with mineral spirits takes minutes especially if you agitate it. Put it in a bottle…I use old Gatorade bottles…shake it hard for until your arm gets tired, about 30 seconds, and take the chain out. That’s all that is necessary. No ultrasonic bath needed nor heat needed…see above. The chain could go from there into the wax melt directly, although I would probably leave the chain in a sunny spot for about an hour so as to keep from putting flammable material into a hot wax melt. The wax melts above the flash point of mineral spirits and going above the flash point of any solvent is to be avoided.
He states at about 1:20 in the video that “mineral spirits speeds up the rust process if there is any water present”. That’s news to this chemist’s ears. I’d like to know the mechanism for this accelerated rusting in mineral spirits. If the worry is about moisture, it can be removed with a water soluble solvent like acetone or alcohol. But, no, mineral spirits won’t make your chain rust.
He also mentions “degassing” several times. There is zero need to degas anything in chain cleaning. There are, occasionally, reasons to degas solvents but simple chain cleaning isn’t one of them. Ultrasonic cleaning vibrates the object being cleaned tor remove any stubborn particles that might be on the object but even that is unnecessary if you have a clean object to begin with. A new chain is clean and an old waxed chain isn’t dirty enough to worry about. Oiled chains are a different matter entirely.
Overall, the “Silca system” is the same as all the other procedures out there…unnecessarily complicated with a lot of useless work. A good procedure should use as few steps as necessary and each step should have some justification for doing it. Chain cleaning can be done in a single step, be it a new chain or a gunky, old winter chain. And when the chain needs to be rewaxed, it doesn’t need any further cleaning. Don’t over think it.
Finally…I know this is going on for far too long…it’s a chain! Chains are cheap and chains will wear out. There’s no need to spend an inordinate amount of time maintaining a chain nor any need to spend an inordinate amount of money on a chain. $40 for a pound of wax is a silly amount of money to spend. Silca can claim that their wax is all secret and will make you a winner of the Tour de France just by using it but they are blowing smoke up your nether regions. A one pound block of Gulf Wax at Safeway costs $7 and will do 99.9% of what Silca’s wax will do.
I just reviewed the “Silca system” video on Silca’s wax webpage and it shares the same problems with all the other “systems” for chain cleaning out there which I will address below. It has one major problem that I’m going to address before going any further. The presenter says to put the mineral spirits in an ultrasonic bath at 65°C (150°F). This is dumb and dangerous! The flash point of mineral spirits ranges from 38°C (100°F) to 60°C (140°F). It would be bad enough to heat a flammable material to over its flash point but ultrasonication agitates the solvent which is an efficient way to make more vapor. Mineral spirits is only slightly toxic so that’s less of a concern than making a very efficient fuel/air ratio. In other words, it’s a great way to set your house on fire! Don’t ultrasonicate solvents at all and especially not above their flash point!!!
It is overly complicated with unnecessary steps that are done for no reason. Mineral spirits is a degreaser and a damned good one! There is no need for any step past doing a mineral spirits wash. You can do 2 washes if you like but there really is no need. If you really have to do two steps, put the water based degreaser first, followed by a water rinse, followed by an alcohol chase, and then polish it off with mineral spirits. The reason for that particular order is to do any water based steps first because water and mineral spirits are incompatible. Water based degreasers have surfactants…soap to regular people…in them that changes the chemistry of water so that water can dissolve some water insoluble compounds. The amount of nonpolar material that can dissolve in a water based degreaser is limited to the carrying capacity of the surfactant in the water and is also limited by the amount of surfactant in the water. Diluting it reduces the carrying capacity.
That limited carrying capacity of a nonpolar compound also means that far more of the surfactant has to be used to do the same job. Think dish soap in a sink. At some point the bubbles go away which means that the soap..again, a surfactant…has glommed onto all the oil that it can and it needs more soap and fresh water. The volume of mineral spirits needed to do the same job is a tiny fraction of that needed for a water based degreaser .
The surfactant also has to be removed. If not removed the surfactant will sit on the metal doing what surfactants do…grabbing onto nonpolar compounds. Alcohol will remove some of it but it would be best to use clean water to flush which means more volume of cleaners needed…usually many times that of the initial degreaser mixture to remove it.
I’ll get into the procedure now. He says that the chain needs to be soaked overnight in mineral spirits. That is completely unnecessary. Degreasing with mineral spirits takes minutes especially if you agitate it. Put it in a bottle…I use old Gatorade bottles…shake it hard for until your arm gets tired, about 30 seconds, and take the chain out. That’s all that is necessary. No ultrasonic bath needed nor heat needed…see above. The chain could go from there into the wax melt directly, although I would probably leave the chain in a sunny spot for about an hour so as to keep from putting flammable material into a hot wax melt. The wax melts above the flash point of mineral spirits and going above the flash point of any solvent is to be avoided.
He states at about 1:20 in the video that “mineral spirits speeds up the rust process if there is any water present”. That’s news to this chemist’s ears. I’d like to know the mechanism for this accelerated rusting in mineral spirits. If the worry is about moisture, it can be removed with a water soluble solvent like acetone or alcohol. But, no, mineral spirits won’t make your chain rust.
He also mentions “degassing” several times. There is zero need to degas anything in chain cleaning. There are, occasionally, reasons to degas solvents but simple chain cleaning isn’t one of them. Ultrasonic cleaning vibrates the object being cleaned tor remove any stubborn particles that might be on the object but even that is unnecessary if you have a clean object to begin with. A new chain is clean and an old waxed chain isn’t dirty enough to worry about. Oiled chains are a different matter entirely.
Overall, the “Silca system” is the same as all the other procedures out there…unnecessarily complicated with a lot of useless work. A good procedure should use as few steps as necessary and each step should have some justification for doing it. Chain cleaning can be done in a single step, be it a new chain or a gunky, old winter chain. And when the chain needs to be rewaxed, it doesn’t need any further cleaning. Don’t over think it.
Finally…I know this is going on for far too long…it’s a chain! Chains are cheap and chains will wear out. There’s no need to spend an inordinate amount of time maintaining a chain nor any need to spend an inordinate amount of money on a chain. $40 for a pound of wax is a silly amount of money to spend. Silca can claim that their wax is all secret and will make you a winner of the Tour de France just by using it but they are blowing smoke up your nether regions. A one pound block of Gulf Wax at Safeway costs $7 and will do 99.9% of what Silca’s wax will do.
It’s not uncommon for hawkers to use terms that give an illusion of scientific knowledge to con the I’ll-informed into paying more money for whatever is it that is being sold.
You should see some of the claims made by the health food / dietary additive industry… absolutely incredible amount of nonsense and yet it’s a multibillion $ industry in US alone.
01-10-24, 03:46 PM
#52
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Also not uncommon for folks to use cynicism on internet forums to refute sound science and experience.
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01-10-24, 04:05 PM
#53
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01-10-24, 04:22 PM
#55
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01-10-24, 04:54 PM
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Do tell. Better yet, don't. It's been a long day. Not sure if I have the energy to argue for the sake of arguing tonight.
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01-10-24, 06:45 PM
#57
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Does this mean I have to carry a Crock Pot on tour, or can I simply use a magnifying glass to heat up the chain, then drip wax from a burning candle on the chain afterwards?
01-10-24, 07:07 PM
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nobody said you had to to do anything. If you want to do that I suppose you can but otherwise just do what makes you happy on tour..or not on tour.
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01-10-24, 08:26 PM
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That's what Im asking. I know a lot of people who tour, who wax their chains. I want to know what they use while touring. Not a hard question. If you don't tour, don't worry about answering. I have heard of lube that is compatible with waxed chains, but don't remember what it is.
01-10-24, 09:09 PM
#62
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Your above response was in the context of food supplement industry.
This industry sells hundreds of items, many are chemically synthesized, for well over $125 billion/year. There is no independent oversight. You obviously believe that they have sound science behind what they are selling. I would be grateful if you could provide information on “sound science” for just a dozen items or even half a dozen items.
Sound science means double blinded trials at multiple centers of studies using large numbers of subjects with appropriate controls.
Always willing to learn some thing new.
01-10-24, 09:12 PM
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01-10-24, 09:26 PM
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Here’s what you said: “Also not uncommon for folks to use cynicism on internet forums to refute sound science and experience.”
Your above response was in the context of food supplement industry.
This industry sells hundreds of items, many are chemically synthesized, for well over $125 billion/year. There is no independent oversight. You obviously believe that they have sound science behind what they are selling. I would be grateful if you could provide information on “sound science” for just a dozen items or even half a dozen items.
Sound science means double blinded trials at multiple centers of studies using large numbers of subjects with appropriate controls.
Always willing to learn some thing new.
Your above response was in the context of food supplement industry.
This industry sells hundreds of items, many are chemically synthesized, for well over $125 billion/year. There is no independent oversight. You obviously believe that they have sound science behind what they are selling. I would be grateful if you could provide information on “sound science” for just a dozen items or even half a dozen items.
Sound science means double blinded trials at multiple centers of studies using large numbers of subjects with appropriate controls.
Always willing to learn some thing new.
Have a great day.
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01-10-24, 09:29 PM
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That's what Im asking. I know a lot of people who tour, who wax their chains. I want to know what they use while touring. Not a hard question. If you don't tour, don't worry about answering. I have heard of lube that is compatible with waxed chains, but don't remember what it is.
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01-10-24, 09:44 PM
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01-11-24, 10:10 AM
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If you aren't performance oriented, use budget chains, and are content with your current component life, then you're right - waxing is an expensive hassle. but for those of us who do chase performance, use high end components, and ant to get the longest possible life out of those components, then waxing is an easy and cost effective way to get performance and reduce wear.
Waxing is cleaner than oil but that’s about its only advantage. The chain is going to wear out no matter what you do. Rings and cassettes and, to a lesser extent, jockey wheels are going to wear out no matter what you do. Waxing just keeps them cleaner so that you don’t have to spend an inordinate amount of time cleaning gunk from the drivetrain. Waxing a chain should also be simple without requiring elaborate and time consuming cleaning procedures that have no purpose other than to make the user feel like they have “done something”.
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01-11-24, 10:23 AM
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I think we may have different definitions of "contamination". I agree that external contaminants do not penetrate into the wax once it has solidified. However, the pre-wax slosh in OMS does remove something from a used waxed chain. I am not sure what exactly is removed, but it is dark gray and settles as a silt on the bottom of the OMS jar after a day or so, and some portion of the settled material can be picked up by a strong magnet. It is not the color of the Gulf wax I use (without any additives because Gulf Wax alone seems to be working just fine).
Now of course whatever comes off the used wax chain in OMS would most likely also come off in paraffin. But the pre-rewaxing slosh in OMS keeps the actual wax clean.
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01-11-24, 10:32 AM
#72
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That's what Im asking. I know a lot of people who tour, who wax their chains. I want to know what they use while touring. Not a hard question. If you don't tour, don't worry about answering. I have heard of lube that is compatible with waxed chains, but don't remember what it is.
Just to be clear, I don’t hot wax. I find solvent wax works just a well without the hassle.
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01-11-24, 11:16 AM
#73
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But for those of us who are, in fact performance oriented, a well designed chain that has been properly lubricated and maintained is well worth a small investment in time and money.
FWIW, I won't take the same step you did and imply that people who disagree with me are performing some foolish task for the sake of "doing something". Rest assured that my choices on the bike are guided by my performance goals and the best testing I'm aware of. I only have so much time and money, and I'm not throwing any of it away. People with different goals and priorities will almost certainly make different choices.
Have a great day.
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01-11-24, 07:13 PM
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Obviously, it depends on the particular chains. I'm not arguing that simply paying more guarantees improved performance. But the difference between, say, a Dura Ace chain, and a chain that doesn't perform as well is friction. Better chains more efficiently transfer power from chainring to cassette. For the same of anyone just hopping on here and not reading the posts that preceded it, you can safely ignore this difference if you aren't performance oriented, if you're happy with your current gear and maintenance regime, and you use chains that have a trivially low price point.
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01-11-24, 07:42 PM
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You are using Gulf Wax (good on you) which is extremely cheap. You don’t need to keep the wax clean. When it gets too dirty for your tastes, just go buy some more. You are likely going to have to do that as you wax chains anyway. Those finely divided metals won’t do anything to the chain nor to the wax. If you are really worried about them, put something in the bottom of the pot to keep the chain off the very bottom. You could make it out of something like this. Everything other than the chain will filter through to the bottom