Ride Clean
#2226
Cat 2
Lance gets a lot of (justified) hate. But his recent two podcasts with Bryan Fogel (director and "star" of Icarus) was quite interesting. First I've ever heard him talk about his regiment or comment about it any manner at all. Interesting stuff. His impression of Dr. Ferrari was entertaining.
#2227
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,569
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 678 Times
in
429 Posts
I don't fault Lance for doping - everyone really was doing it. He was just better at it. Or, perhaps, his doping was no better than anyone else's, he just really was better. We will probably never know the answer to that. And I generally think this lawsuit he is facing is BS - USPS got the exposure it paid for because he was doping. They got what they wanted.
But, Lance was a horrible human being to anyone who questioned his success. He actively worked to ruin the careers of those people, often successfully. That is what, in my mind, is truly unforgivable.
But, Lance was a horrible human being to anyone who questioned his success. He actively worked to ruin the careers of those people, often successfully. That is what, in my mind, is truly unforgivable.
#2229
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I know who won those 7 tours.
Last edited by Doge; 02-08-18 at 04:57 PM.
#2230
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times
in
250 Posts
Its always depressing looking back at those tours and seeing all the American results voided amongst a litany of celebrated dopers from other countries.
#2231
Cat 2
Didn't mean to turn this into a criticism of him (although I think many of us are of the same opinion). Just that him talking about Fogel's doping regimetn adn tell him he was over doing it. In summary he recounted Ferrari telling him he didn't need anything more than red blood cells. He said it was very rarely anything more than EPO and Folic acid + blood bags. Just interesting stuff to hear as I figured their regiments were these complicated things, but based on the way he portrayed it, it seems almost.. simple.
#2232
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,569
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 678 Times
in
429 Posts
Lance didn't create doping. It was going on well before he got there. The Festina Affair happened in 98. Lance won his first tour in 99. Many of the guys in the pro peloton from that time period say they were really fast, but realized they had to dope to make it to the top level. Basically, they had to do what the other guy was doing. The TDF didn't name a replacement winner for the seven tours they stripped from Lance largely because they couldn't guarantee there was anyone clean in those events.
That said, Lance probably did more to refine and perfect the system of doping than anyone before him.
#2233
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
And we saw what Landis did for Lance. I don't think this is much different than in NFL a clean QB having a juiced up line.
It is a reason I like the idea of a team suspension. It does not have to be extreme, but as the "innocent" benefit, sharing in the discipline would aide to clean things up a bit more.
#2234
Le Crocodile
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 787 Times
in
311 Posts
I was just talking about Lance last night with my GF. I basically summed it up this way.
It's BS that his titles were stripped, but because he's such an ass, I find it hard to care.
Of course, this is entirely dependent on an opinion that I have formed without actually dealing with the guy. Meeting and dealing are two entirely separate things.
It's BS that his titles were stripped, but because he's such an ass, I find it hard to care.
Of course, this is entirely dependent on an opinion that I have formed without actually dealing with the guy. Meeting and dealing are two entirely separate things.
#2235
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
He was trend setting on his approach to planning and training.
The drugs were a huge part of it, but he tested, pre-ran and planned everything.
I know so many people who I disprove of something they do, and I expect some is reciprocal. But it is pretty easy to sort that stuff out. I don't look to any athlete, actor or politician as a role model, but if they do something well, I think that is worth copying - if what they do matters. I'd love to have Lance as a consultant.
The drugs were a huge part of it, but he tested, pre-ran and planned everything.
I know so many people who I disprove of something they do, and I expect some is reciprocal. But it is pretty easy to sort that stuff out. I don't look to any athlete, actor or politician as a role model, but if they do something well, I think that is worth copying - if what they do matters. I'd love to have Lance as a consultant.
#2236
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Why we should allow performance enhancing drugs in sport
Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
#2237
out walking the earth
Why we should allow performance enhancing drugs in sport
Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
Try and find some balance in your reading and philosophical musings. Try McKibben's Enough, it's probably held up with time.
Last edited by gsteinb; 12-09-18 at 08:56 AM.
#2239
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Un-drugged women born with XX chromosomes is naturally too high in testosterone. IAAF says athlete needs to take drugs to compete fairly.
The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.
This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.
This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
#2240
Blast from the Past
Un-drugged women born with XX chromosomes is naturally too high in testosterone. IAAF says athlete needs to take drugs to compete fairly.
The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.
This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.
This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
The science, understanding and measurement of physiology and performance in aerobic sports are only going to get better. Seems like a very slippery slope.
#2241
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Wow. Isn't the statement "The revised rules are not about cheating, no athlete with a [difference of sexual development] has cheated, they are about levelling the playing field to ensure fair and meaningful competition in the sport of athletics where success is determined by talent, dedication and hard work rather than other contributing factors," relegating a natural genetic difference to the category of "other contributing factors" ? If so shouldn't the same reasoning apply to other genetic advantages as well as T?
The science, understanding and measurement of physiology and performance in aerobic sports are only going to get better. Seems like a very slippery slope.
The science, understanding and measurement of physiology and performance in aerobic sports are only going to get better. Seems like a very slippery slope.
It is the leveling that is so hard to do. Tie a rock on them, or give them drugs, or the other way, add bionics or give them drugs, or make them just pay more for everything. It is a slippery slope.
The other thing "they" do is add yet another division. There are about 200 USAC National Champion categories right now.
We have gender, age, equipment categories now. Weight is another common one.
Last edited by Doge; 02-17-19 at 01:37 PM.
#2242
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
Oh boy. Here we go again. A Blood doping ring in cross country skiing was uncovered that include pro cyclists. Authorities found bags of blood with coded names on them. And the anti doping passport protocol failed to pick up the doping.
https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/new...cycling_483916
https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/new...cycling_483916
#2243
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times
in
250 Posts
If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.
Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
#2244
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,445
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4233 Post(s)
Liked 2,948 Times
in
1,807 Posts
If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.
Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
#2245
Killing Rabbits
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,697
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 278 Post(s)
Liked 217 Times
in
102 Posts
If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.
#2246
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,569
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 678 Times
in
429 Posts
So it turns out Track and Field is as dirty as cycling was and Nike was at the heart of it: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-ce...948694?tesla=y
#2247
Has a magic bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,590
Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Mentioned: 699 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4456 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times
in
157 Posts
Here’s an article that just came out a few weeks ago, looking at muscle mass and strength in transgender men and transgender women over the first 12 months of gender transition. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...82557.full.pdf
Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.
During the 12 month study period, serum testosterone levels for transgender women were in the female range, meaning if the study subjects were racing under UCI or USAC rules, they’d race as women.
The study subjects were not athletes nor were they training in any way. Just moderately active people, most of their exercise was walking.
All of which supports my previous arguments in this thread that although aerobic performance may be diminished in transgender women, body size and muscle mass differences remain with trans women being larger than cis women. This study specifically demonstrates that trans women retain the muscle strength they had as a male, at least for the first 12 months after transition. Thus, they likely have a very significant advantage over cisgender women in any sport in which sprinting is important. All of which is what you’d predict if you have a good understanding of physiology, but you never know for sure unless you set up a study and see.
Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.
During the 12 month study period, serum testosterone levels for transgender women were in the female range, meaning if the study subjects were racing under UCI or USAC rules, they’d race as women.
The study subjects were not athletes nor were they training in any way. Just moderately active people, most of their exercise was walking.
All of which supports my previous arguments in this thread that although aerobic performance may be diminished in transgender women, body size and muscle mass differences remain with trans women being larger than cis women. This study specifically demonstrates that trans women retain the muscle strength they had as a male, at least for the first 12 months after transition. Thus, they likely have a very significant advantage over cisgender women in any sport in which sprinting is important. All of which is what you’d predict if you have a good understanding of physiology, but you never know for sure unless you set up a study and see.
#2248
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
...
Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.
...
Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.
...
NO way a committee can figure this out. I think pro games are silly, but they are entertainment, so whatever turns out to be most entertaining wins. Fairness went out way long ago. You have to enjoy competing because it is fun, not because it is just.
#2249
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
Sudafed isn't a problem as long as you keep to the dosage on the box. This applies to both the four- and twelve-hour versions. I use it often enough that I checked it out.
I was taking lisinopril + HCTZ for high blood pressure. When I started racing I had my doc change the prescription to just lisinopril because HCTZ is a known masking agent.
I was taking lisinopril + HCTZ for high blood pressure. When I started racing I had my doc change the prescription to just lisinopril because HCTZ is a known masking agent.
At least for me, one tablet changes things a lot.
#2250
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
Another masters doper. https://www.usada.org/sanction/barba...ng-sanction-2/