If You Were Going to Huret, Would it be Allvit or Svelto?
11-16-20, 09:10 PM
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I'm going to stick up for the unloved Allvit. Its day goes back to 1958 BTW, although those first Allvits looked different, didn't have that cover that hid the parallelogram. Here's the '58:
What I like about it is mostly theoretical -- the upper pulley goes down as the mech swings in towards low gear, where most other parallelograms swing up as they move in -- the opposite of what you want, for the jockey wheel to follow the shape of the freewheel and maintain a constant gap from the sprockets. Other mechs have different ways of achieving this, such as the upper pulley floating downward by various means even though the parallelogram is swinging up. DuoPar, Mountech, Super Plate were some of the ways that come to mind. But the Svelto had none of those, so its pulley swings up as it goes in. Thus it has to start out rather far away from the sprockets, and this also limits the largest sprocket it can clear. My Allvit shifts easily to a 32t and could probably clear a 34t (tho I haven't tried). Here's Rebour's explanation of the benefit of the Allvit:
The big heavy main body of the Allvit is needed because the fixed parallelogram pivots are at the bottom, and the free moving pivots are at the top. This is the opposite of every other mech ever made, to the best of my knowledge. No one ever copied it.
The Svelto was made as a cheaper alternative, for OEMs who didn't want to spring for the relatively pricey Allvit! I know this is hard to imagine nowadays, but the Allvit was actually kinda high-end, as touring mechs go. (Campy was not their competition.) Rene Herse among others spec'd the Allvit for ultimate cost-no-object constructeur bikes because for a while there ('60s), it was the best derailleur in the world for that sort of bike.
Allvit pros: shifts better, rebuildable.
Cons: needs to be rebuilt! The pivots get gummed up and need to be cleaned and oiled now and then, and many Allvits have bent parallelogram arms that bind up the action. When I overhauled the one on my Schwinn Super Sport, I straightened the bent arms, lubed and properly adjusted the pivots, and I couldn't believe the difference, the thing shifts really well now.
Oh yeah I also bent the parallelogram-return spring in the direction that increases the spring preload, so it shifts down to the small sprocket with more authority. Balky shifts into high gear was one of the common complaints about the Allvit, especially after it accumulated a bit of grit in the pivots. They should have made the spring stronger to begin with, but the mod I did on mine fixed that.
I know, who rebuilds an Allvit?? No one, right? Just throw it away and put on a Suntour, everyone sez. I only did it because I'm stubborn, and I kinda liked doing it.
Mark B in Seattle
What I like about it is mostly theoretical -- the upper pulley goes down as the mech swings in towards low gear, where most other parallelograms swing up as they move in -- the opposite of what you want, for the jockey wheel to follow the shape of the freewheel and maintain a constant gap from the sprockets. Other mechs have different ways of achieving this, such as the upper pulley floating downward by various means even though the parallelogram is swinging up. DuoPar, Mountech, Super Plate were some of the ways that come to mind. But the Svelto had none of those, so its pulley swings up as it goes in. Thus it has to start out rather far away from the sprockets, and this also limits the largest sprocket it can clear. My Allvit shifts easily to a 32t and could probably clear a 34t (tho I haven't tried). Here's Rebour's explanation of the benefit of the Allvit:
The big heavy main body of the Allvit is needed because the fixed parallelogram pivots are at the bottom, and the free moving pivots are at the top. This is the opposite of every other mech ever made, to the best of my knowledge. No one ever copied it.
The Svelto was made as a cheaper alternative, for OEMs who didn't want to spring for the relatively pricey Allvit! I know this is hard to imagine nowadays, but the Allvit was actually kinda high-end, as touring mechs go. (Campy was not their competition.) Rene Herse among others spec'd the Allvit for ultimate cost-no-object constructeur bikes because for a while there ('60s), it was the best derailleur in the world for that sort of bike.
Allvit pros: shifts better, rebuildable.
Cons: needs to be rebuilt! The pivots get gummed up and need to be cleaned and oiled now and then, and many Allvits have bent parallelogram arms that bind up the action. When I overhauled the one on my Schwinn Super Sport, I straightened the bent arms, lubed and properly adjusted the pivots, and I couldn't believe the difference, the thing shifts really well now.
Oh yeah I also bent the parallelogram-return spring in the direction that increases the spring preload, so it shifts down to the small sprocket with more authority. Balky shifts into high gear was one of the common complaints about the Allvit, especially after it accumulated a bit of grit in the pivots. They should have made the spring stronger to begin with, but the mod I did on mine fixed that.
I know, who rebuilds an Allvit?? No one, right? Just throw it away and put on a Suntour, everyone sez. I only did it because I'm stubborn, and I kinda liked doing it.
Mark B in Seattle
(emphasis added by rhm)
All good points, and well explained, thanks!
To my mind the Allvit's fatal flaw is that if your bike falls over on the right side, or something heavy hits the derailleur from the right side, the derailleur is in a position to get bent. On a derailleur like the Campy Gran Sport or Huret Svelto, that has a parallelogram mounted more or less at the dropout, the derailleur just deflects as if shifting to a lower gear. The chain doesn't like it, but the derailleur survives. On an Allvit, or on any of the pull chain derailleurs (Simplex Tour de France, Cyclo Benelux, etc) the derailleur bends, often with catastrophic results.
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11-16-20, 09:29 PM
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I ran an Allvit on the 5-speed Raleigh Sprite I rehabbed for the COVID challenge. It was a pretty lousy performer.
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11-16-20, 09:57 PM
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As someone ignorant of Huret shifters and derailleurs, having never had the opportunity to use a set, can I ask a more basic question than the initial one?
How do either of these derailleurs compare to almost anything else on the market at that time? Is there anything that was generally considered "good" from another manufacturer that these were superior to in form or function? For some reason I usually get the impression that all of these Huret pieces below the Jubilee line have a bad reputation compared to the Campagnolo, Simplex, and early Shimano and Suntour offerings that they were up against. Is that true, and if so, why?
-Gregory
How do either of these derailleurs compare to almost anything else on the market at that time? Is there anything that was generally considered "good" from another manufacturer that these were superior to in form or function? For some reason I usually get the impression that all of these Huret pieces below the Jubilee line have a bad reputation compared to the Campagnolo, Simplex, and early Shimano and Suntour offerings that they were up against. Is that true, and if so, why?
-Gregory
11-17-20, 05:36 AM
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As someone ignorant of Huret shifters and derailleurs, having never had the opportunity to use a set, can I ask a more basic question than the initial one?
How do either of these derailleurs compare to almost anything else on the market at that time? Is there anything that was generally considered "good" from another manufacturer that these were superior to in form or function? For some reason I usually get the impression that all of these Huret pieces below the Jubilee line have a bad reputation compared to the Campagnolo, Simplex, and early Shimano and Suntour offerings that they were up against. Is that true, and if so, why?
-Gregory
How do either of these derailleurs compare to almost anything else on the market at that time? Is there anything that was generally considered "good" from another manufacturer that these were superior to in form or function? For some reason I usually get the impression that all of these Huret pieces below the Jubilee line have a bad reputation compared to the Campagnolo, Simplex, and early Shimano and Suntour offerings that they were up against. Is that true, and if so, why?
-Gregory
Huret was not afraid of finding the bottom end of the market, and yet they made the Jubilee. Curiously they made a steel front mech for a braze-on tab that is an homage to both - it has the major part of the Jubilee mechanism - including the lightweight nylon roller - executed in the same brutish stamped steel as the lowest of their other offerings.
The Alvit worked well, except that the cable mechanical advantage was low so you had to crank the shifter wingnut. They made special long levers to try to make it feel better, but they were not at all cool. The Alvit front mech got gunked up from tire spray, but it did have a rising cage, the Simplex pushrod went straight. The Valentino front had a rising cage but needed the same tight wingnut as the Alvit rear.
Simplexes were viewed as better because they were newer and lighter and felt better and they came on better bikes. It was obvious they were fragile, but a new one with alloy shifters was crisp and quiet. A Simplex that met a spoke was a dead Simplex.
The cheap Campy mechs were viewed as better because they had that name on them, mostly. The Velox had a bit of bling, the Valentino front gave you more tyre clearance that anything else.
Then there were outliers, like the Favorit mechs and Ofmega Mistrals, the nasty nasty Triplexes; and a host of Record clones from Roto/Zeus/Galli and the like. Even the Triplex was cooler than the Alvit.
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11-17-20, 08:12 AM
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If you are still trying to decide, I can now say from personal experience that the Svelto will have difficulty over 24-26 teeth on the back - yes it can work with a 28 but just barely. Alvitt had no problem at all. And the Svelto does not shift as precisely as the Alvitt, neither shifts as well as a good Simplex, and none of those shift anywhere near as well as pretty much any SunTour.
11-17-20, 08:27 AM
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How about a Huret Luxe instead of either? It looks, to my eye, built to a higher standard of finish than the Allvit or Svelto (but, wow, expensive on eBay!):
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11-17-20, 09:18 AM
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11-17-20, 09:28 AM
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Sweet and I do think those shift well; unsure if OP's Gitane is of the correct era and/or price point for a Jubilee, or if he cares or just wants a Huret.
A shame they did not use the Allvit/Luxe parallelogram geometry on a derailleur built to Jubilee standards.
A shame they did not use the Allvit/Luxe parallelogram geometry on a derailleur built to Jubilee standards.
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11-17-20, 09:52 AM
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For me, weight is no concern. I'm even keeping the steel rims. 
I like the design because as Mark showed before, they understood the benefit of following a constant gap from cog to cog. Suntour may have done it more effectively, but they weren't the first. And if these things were good enough for top builders like Rene Herse, then I'm sure I can get adequate shifting over five cogs for a simple errand/transport/cruiser bike.
I like the design because as Mark showed before, they understood the benefit of following a constant gap from cog to cog. Suntour may have done it more effectively, but they weren't the first. And if these things were good enough for top builders like Rene Herse, then I'm sure I can get adequate shifting over five cogs for a simple errand/transport/cruiser bike.
11-17-20, 09:57 AM
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@dweenk
Have you any thoughts/impressions after all this time about your choice?
Every Allvit that came my way in the past was really beat up. For some reason I'd been looking for one lately, and wouldn't you know it, the universe heeded my call.
It's cleaning up nicely. I'm going with a 14-28 5 speed TDC freewheel in place of the Atom 14-24, and a NOS Regina chain. Single 46 tooth chainwheel. Can't wait to get it on the road.
Have you any thoughts/impressions after all this time about your choice?
Every Allvit that came my way in the past was really beat up. For some reason I'd been looking for one lately, and wouldn't you know it, the universe heeded my call.
It's cleaning up nicely. I'm going with a 14-28 5 speed TDC freewheel in place of the Atom 14-24, and a NOS Regina chain. Single 46 tooth chainwheel. Can't wait to get it on the road.
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11-17-20, 11:51 AM
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Sounds good, my memories of Allvit are a bit hazy to be honest. If you change your mind, I went to the derailleur box and pulled out my Luxe, I think I used it for a week or two 45 years ago, looks new, and would DONATE it to a fellow Marylander and Gitane owner if you wanted to drop by.
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11-17-20, 12:33 PM
#37
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The Schwinn Super Sport I used as a commuter for several years had an Allvit (with "Twin-Stik" levers) and I thought it worked fine. I could tell when it needed to be cleaned and oiled because the shift into the smallest cog would become sluggish.
forgive the quality of this pic, it is a scan of an old 3 1/2 x 5 snapshot
The Huret Jubilee that was original equipment on my Raleigh Super Course MkII eventually showed the same symptom after 40 years of use, but no amount of cleaning and oiling would resolve its lack of ability to make that shift. I think that the spring had just become too "tired". I replaced that derailleur with a Huret Challenger, which is correct for that bike according to the catalogs, and that derailleur shifts more positively and also allowed me to go from 24t to 28t on the freewheel. Better all around!
I have a Huret Luxe on the '73 Super Course even though there should be a Simplex for that year (the Luxe was no longer produced in 1973). I have mixed feelings about the Luxe - I kind of like the "minimalist" look of it, but the shifting is both high-effort and a little vague. This may be a consequence of the extra cable runs required by the stem shifters I'm using with the all-rounder bars or it may just be the nature of the thing having potential for flex. I liked it better when I was using it with downtube "Manettes a grand levier" (the longer Huret shift levers). It really needs those levers, both they looked too much like spears when I had them mounted on the stem.
forgive the quality of this pic, it is a scan of an old 3 1/2 x 5 snapshot
The Huret Jubilee that was original equipment on my Raleigh Super Course MkII eventually showed the same symptom after 40 years of use, but no amount of cleaning and oiling would resolve its lack of ability to make that shift. I think that the spring had just become too "tired". I replaced that derailleur with a Huret Challenger, which is correct for that bike according to the catalogs, and that derailleur shifts more positively and also allowed me to go from 24t to 28t on the freewheel. Better all around!
I have a Huret Luxe on the '73 Super Course even though there should be a Simplex for that year (the Luxe was no longer produced in 1973). I have mixed feelings about the Luxe - I kind of like the "minimalist" look of it, but the shifting is both high-effort and a little vague. This may be a consequence of the extra cable runs required by the stem shifters I'm using with the all-rounder bars or it may just be the nature of the thing having potential for flex. I liked it better when I was using it with downtube "Manettes a grand levier" (the longer Huret shift levers). It really needs those levers, both they looked too much like spears when I had them mounted on the stem.
11-17-20, 01:43 PM
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Sounds good, my memories of Allvit are a bit hazy to be honest. If you change your mind, I went to the derailleur box and pulled out my Luxe, I think I used it for a week or two 45 years ago, looks new, and would DONATE it to a fellow Marylander and Gitane owner if you wanted to drop by.
11-17-20, 05:18 PM
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I'm debating between an Allvit and a Svelto for my '62 Jack Taylor International (the guy who sold me the frame threw in a whole pile of old Huret derailleurs). It was originally equipped with an Allvit and I may yet put one on. I haven't used an Allvit since my Schwinn Continental in the 70's. Right now I'm using the Svelto simply because I've never tried one before. It shifts a 13-26 FW and 36-48 chainrings with no problem. I'm using the extra-long levers so shifting is rather slow, like changing gears on a truck. But I think they're the coolest levers ever.
11-17-20, 07:28 PM
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The Allvit's curved arc of upper pulley travel also defined the annoying characteristics of it's spring force and lever tension screw settings.
Because the cage's travel path is more vertical approaching the largest cog, the spring and cable tension will allow the parallelogram to swing uncontrollably in response to bumps in the road UNLESS the spring tension and the lever friction setting are high when using the largest cogs.
So Huret firstly used a higher-rate return spring, which winds up tight as you approach low gear which usually is 28t with these derailers. And so you had to screw the wingnut tighter to hold the spring tension.
It was all perfectly executed on the Supersport, with the pair of long Twin-Stik levers that easily handled the extra spring and friction forces.
The other thing about the Supersport was that the long-cage Allvit was used here to handle the chain wrap of the 14-32t(34t?) freewheel. But the top pulley still had to clear the huge cog and this was accomplished not by any cage tweak, but by swinging the derailer body clockwise into a more-vertical position. This was done merely by use of a modified "claw" mounting bracket.
I prefer not to exceed 28t using the Allvit because of the added chain gap caused by moving the derailer body rearward into a vertical position. This causes huge problems with shifting response when using the sort of flexible, bushingless, modern chain that I prefer using with my Uniglide and Suntour freewheels, so a stock Supersport may actually shift better using laterally-stiff vintage chain because of the huge chain gap over the smaller cogs.
Sugino of all companies actually did copy the Allvit's very-long dropped-knuckle, "bumper-steel" design on their VIC model derailer, but also tilted the parallelogram, making this a hybrid of a Suntour and an Allvit! This was an indexed derailer and as such needed to maintain as small of a chain gap as possible. The VIC was seriously flawed though in that it's wildly-protruding limit screws were ultra-vulnerable to impact from even light trail debris, and was sold only with indexed mtb-style thumb levers.
The VIC's curious assemblage of design elements I think illustrates how difficult it can be to make yet another version of a product that has already had the best features patent-protected.
https://www.bikestash.com/images/rear...6bdfdd16797271
Because the cage's travel path is more vertical approaching the largest cog, the spring and cable tension will allow the parallelogram to swing uncontrollably in response to bumps in the road UNLESS the spring tension and the lever friction setting are high when using the largest cogs.
So Huret firstly used a higher-rate return spring, which winds up tight as you approach low gear which usually is 28t with these derailers. And so you had to screw the wingnut tighter to hold the spring tension.
It was all perfectly executed on the Supersport, with the pair of long Twin-Stik levers that easily handled the extra spring and friction forces.
The other thing about the Supersport was that the long-cage Allvit was used here to handle the chain wrap of the 14-32t(34t?) freewheel. But the top pulley still had to clear the huge cog and this was accomplished not by any cage tweak, but by swinging the derailer body clockwise into a more-vertical position. This was done merely by use of a modified "claw" mounting bracket.
I prefer not to exceed 28t using the Allvit because of the added chain gap caused by moving the derailer body rearward into a vertical position. This causes huge problems with shifting response when using the sort of flexible, bushingless, modern chain that I prefer using with my Uniglide and Suntour freewheels, so a stock Supersport may actually shift better using laterally-stiff vintage chain because of the huge chain gap over the smaller cogs.
Sugino of all companies actually did copy the Allvit's very-long dropped-knuckle, "bumper-steel" design on their VIC model derailer, but also tilted the parallelogram, making this a hybrid of a Suntour and an Allvit! This was an indexed derailer and as such needed to maintain as small of a chain gap as possible. The VIC was seriously flawed though in that it's wildly-protruding limit screws were ultra-vulnerable to impact from even light trail debris, and was sold only with indexed mtb-style thumb levers.
The VIC's curious assemblage of design elements I think illustrates how difficult it can be to make yet another version of a product that has already had the best features patent-protected.
https://www.bikestash.com/images/rear...6bdfdd16797271
Last edited by dddd; 11-17-20 at 07:40 PM.
11-17-20, 09:03 PM
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Consider the Huret Challenger derailleur. It worked pretty well.
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11-18-20, 10:20 AM
#42
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No problem, back in the box it goes. Might be a Plan B if my project using a Simplex 543 does not pan out (which would break my heart), but unsure if a short-cage Luxe would have enough range (13-24, single chainring).
Which reminds me that I was just wondering if anyone ever made a variable-slant-parallelogram RD? It would require (heavy) places to adjust at both ends of the p'gram, but you could follow any freewheel/cassette; well, at least until today's crazy 50T largest cog one I see today.
The Allvit's curved arc of upper pulley travel also defined the annoying characteristics of it's spring force and lever tension screw settings.(snip) Sugino of all companies actually did copy the Allvit's very-long dropped-knuckle, "bumper-steel" design on their VIC model derailer, but also tilted the parallelogram, making this a hybrid of a Suntour and an Allvit! This was an indexed derailer and as such needed to maintain as small of a chain gap as possible.
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11-18-20, 12:34 PM
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I would use a Jubile. by far the most elegant bicycle part ever made. but back to alvits and sveltos.
don't forget that the alvit was stock on herse and singer so even tho it's considered bottom of the
line (because of Schwinn) it actually functions better that the Svelto but the Svelto looks better.
so I guess it's a toss up. I guess the question is how good is the frame? good enough to upgrade
to a Jubile or no?
don't forget that the alvit was stock on herse and singer so even tho it's considered bottom of the
line (because of Schwinn) it actually functions better that the Svelto but the Svelto looks better.
so I guess it's a toss up. I guess the question is how good is the frame? good enough to upgrade
to a Jubile or no?
11-18-20, 02:11 PM
#44
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...Which reminds me that I was just wondering if anyone ever made a variable-slant-parallelogram RD? It would require (heavy) places to adjust at both ends of the p'gram, but you could follow any freewheel/cassette; well, at least until today's crazy 50T largest cog one I see today.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageHoverTitle
11-18-20, 03:35 PM
#45
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Check out the Campagnolo Chorus "A-B" derailer from the C-Record era.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageHoverTitle
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageHoverTitle
Of course, being mostly away from bikes from 1981-2017 means I missed out on a lot of developments.
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Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
11-18-20, 05:32 PM
#46
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It would also be critical for each position to have both ends of the parallelogram "indexed" to the exact same A or B position, so the cage remained parallel to the cogs.
So Campy chose to offer two indexing rings for 6s use and presumably two more rings for 7s use, and with each end of the parallelogram having two fixed "indexed" positions A and B.
11-18-20, 07:13 PM
#47
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Well now I guess I have to put the stock Allvit on a 73 Super Sport that I am putting together for my son. I took the stock one off my 73 that I bought in 75 very early on. Stock is stock I guess.
11-18-20, 07:34 PM
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11-18-20, 07:39 PM
#49
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11-19-20, 10:18 AM
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Pulled the Svelto off the Frejus.
A few pics - just for the record. Maybe I shoulda disassembled and cleaned first but ....
A few pics - just for the record. Maybe I shoulda disassembled and cleaned first but ....
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
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