Is it silly to get excited over 40 year old wheels?
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Is it silly to get excited over 40 year old wheels?
Well...almost 40 years...
Ever since I got the beautiful 1985 Opus III I've wanted to put proper wheels on it. The bike was pretty original but came with Gipiemme Sprint hubbed wheels with red label Mavic G 40 rims. Nice wheels for sure but no right for this old classic. Well, I finally rolled the dice on a set of Superbe hubbed 36 spoke wheels with Arc en Ciel tubular rims. Nice silver rims like this bike deserves. The set I grab were pretty grubby looking but were supposed to have very few miles on them.
Got them in yesterday and started going over them. Quick cleaning to get off the grime and things looked pretty good. Then I opened up the front hub and found old grease but no signs of wear. Everything inside the hub cleaned up beautifully and new bearing went in. I really bought these gambling on the hubs at least being good and happy with what I saw. Wiped down each hub and took steel wool to the rims to clean off the gunk and a few spots of dried glue. Freewheel sounded a little dry yesterday so I tried running some oil into it. Not sure how much I got it but it does sound a lot better today. If I've got it identified right it's Suntour New Winner 13-23 freewheel.
Did a quick first pass with aluminum polish and for sure these will be really shiny after a bit of work. Rims seemed really straight but spoke tension is all over the place. I suck at wheels so I'm going to run these by the LBS before I glue them up. My thoughts are to ask them to de-tension all the spokes and then being them back up to tension properly. Does this sound right? I've checked a few random spokes and have found any seized nipples but should hit one with PB blaster or such before I take them in?
Anyway, super excited about getting some tubulars back on this old racer. Hope these work out. Still need to figure out which tubulars to through on this now, they have to look classic.
Front wheel comes in at 737 grams and the rear is around 961 grams if the weight I found for the freewheel is right.
This pic doesn't really catch the shine. They went from chalky grey to fairly mirror like with one quick polishing pass. I guess that makes these the earlier, non-anodized rims. Seller said aroun 1981
This shows the shine much better. Steel wool took off the few spots of rust the QR's had on them.
Suntour New Winner, right?
Ever since I got the beautiful 1985 Opus III I've wanted to put proper wheels on it. The bike was pretty original but came with Gipiemme Sprint hubbed wheels with red label Mavic G 40 rims. Nice wheels for sure but no right for this old classic. Well, I finally rolled the dice on a set of Superbe hubbed 36 spoke wheels with Arc en Ciel tubular rims. Nice silver rims like this bike deserves. The set I grab were pretty grubby looking but were supposed to have very few miles on them.
Got them in yesterday and started going over them. Quick cleaning to get off the grime and things looked pretty good. Then I opened up the front hub and found old grease but no signs of wear. Everything inside the hub cleaned up beautifully and new bearing went in. I really bought these gambling on the hubs at least being good and happy with what I saw. Wiped down each hub and took steel wool to the rims to clean off the gunk and a few spots of dried glue. Freewheel sounded a little dry yesterday so I tried running some oil into it. Not sure how much I got it but it does sound a lot better today. If I've got it identified right it's Suntour New Winner 13-23 freewheel.
Did a quick first pass with aluminum polish and for sure these will be really shiny after a bit of work. Rims seemed really straight but spoke tension is all over the place. I suck at wheels so I'm going to run these by the LBS before I glue them up. My thoughts are to ask them to de-tension all the spokes and then being them back up to tension properly. Does this sound right? I've checked a few random spokes and have found any seized nipples but should hit one with PB blaster or such before I take them in?
Anyway, super excited about getting some tubulars back on this old racer. Hope these work out. Still need to figure out which tubulars to through on this now, they have to look classic.
Front wheel comes in at 737 grams and the rear is around 961 grams if the weight I found for the freewheel is right.
This pic doesn't really catch the shine. They went from chalky grey to fairly mirror like with one quick polishing pass. I guess that makes these the earlier, non-anodized rims. Seller said aroun 1981
This shows the shine much better. Steel wool took off the few spots of rust the QR's had on them.
Suntour New Winner, right?
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If you have a LBS you really really trust with wheel building, sure, drop em off with your directions. You could back off all the spokes yourself and then you know for sure they brought them to proper even tension from zero which I think is important. Too many employees do work that is "good enough".
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^^^^^Right.....ad they look very nice!
Best, Ben
Best, Ben
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Great rims....''have a set myself that I run on my Ron Cooper from time to time. An issue I've encountered with truing older wheel builds is the nipples can be very difficult....if not impossible.... to turn. With this in mind, whoever does the work for you may have to replace a few spokes where the nipple just will not budge. I'll cross my fingers for you....or poor another gin.
Dean
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If you have a LBS you really really trust with wheel building, sure, drop em off with your directions. You could back off all the spokes yourself and then you know for sure they brought them to proper even tension from zero which I think is important. Too many employees do work that is "good enough".
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^^^^ if you are going to go that far remember to tape the spoke together....
Best, Ben
Best, Ben
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Yes, and I personally would take it one step further. Remove the rims from the spokes and check them for roundness and flatness. There are various ways to "true" wonky rims prior to lacing them. If they are not round or flat, they will never have uniform spoke tensions.
but man, just reading it, I'm thinking... man, what a pain in the ash that is. But if you have classic rims you want to save, it's totally worth it. Make sure the rim lies flat on the floor-- and if it doesn't, bend it until it does. Then make sure the diameter is constant, and bend it until it is. This isn't rocket science. If you're worried about the rim coming apart in your hands, you don't want to be riding that rim anyway.
Oh, clever! I wouldn't have thought of that.
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If you have a LBS you really really trust with wheel building, sure, drop em off with your directions. You could back off all the spokes yourself and then you know for sure they brought them to proper even tension from zero which I think is important. Too many employees do work that is "good enough".
I also suck at wheels so IF I was going to have them worked on, it would only be after a good face to face conversation with the wheel person.
Again, all the threadless, cartridge, disposable, planned obsolescence, parts replacing, profit at all cost is the reason we are in this predicament.
Heaven forbid we learn any time consuming oldschool skills that could help other challenging tasks get done well.
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jamesdak, the appearance of the rims turned out fantastic. Wow.
You mention a process of cleaning and using aluminum polish. Would you mind sharing your process and tools or supplies you used?
I have a few sets of rims that are also “cloudy” (non-anodized, I believe) needing this treatment. I’d value your insight.
You mention a process of cleaning and using aluminum polish. Would you mind sharing your process and tools or supplies you used?
I have a few sets of rims that are also “cloudy” (non-anodized, I believe) needing this treatment. I’d value your insight.
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jamesdak , that OPUS is one beautiful bike !
For that bike, I would go a step or fourteen further on the wheels
1) remove rims from spokes
2) remove spokes from hubs
3) true rims
4) straighten spokes
5) repack hubs
6) flush freewheel with kerosene
7) let freewheel drip-dry overnight then apply oil of your choice
8) polish hubs
9) polish rims
10) polish spokes
11) replace any nipples that have rounded flats
12) re-lace wheels
13) take wheels to wheel-builder
14) install new rim tape, tubes and tires
For that bike, I would go a step or fourteen further on the wheels
1) remove rims from spokes
2) remove spokes from hubs
3) true rims
4) straighten spokes
5) repack hubs
6) flush freewheel with kerosene
7) let freewheel drip-dry overnight then apply oil of your choice
8) polish hubs
9) polish rims
10) polish spokes
11) replace any nipples that have rounded flats
12) re-lace wheels
13) take wheels to wheel-builder
14) install new rim tape, tubes and tires
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I just read the title of this thread to my wife. She said “yes it’s silly to get excited over a new set of wheels”. Of course I disagree. I picked up a set of Wheels with Campy Record hubs and 27” rigida blue hoops. Spent the last few days polishing them and they look great now, With a beautiful mirror finish. So it’s not universal, but some of us (generally anyone on the C&V forum) will understand your excitement.
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jamesdak, the appearance of the rims turned out fantastic. Wow.
You mention a process of cleaning and using aluminum polish. Would you mind sharing your process and tools or supplies you used?
I have a few sets of rims that are also “cloudy” (non-anodized, I believe) needing this treatment. I’d value your insight.
You mention a process of cleaning and using aluminum polish. Would you mind sharing your process and tools or supplies you used?
I have a few sets of rims that are also “cloudy” (non-anodized, I believe) needing this treatment. I’d value your insight.
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Very nice.
i was rummaging around for a provisional set of wheels for a bike I recently bought that had totally wrong wheels on it.
essentially a NOS set, Robergel spokes- which is not a problem save odd threading.
front is fine but could use 1/2 turn more. Kroil time. The rear is weird- drive side spokes look good, the NDS... way too long- could use a bit more tension but concerned there will not be enough thread. I am repacking the hubs now and I do have a box or two thr Robergel spokes- will know tomorrow.
i was rummaging around for a provisional set of wheels for a bike I recently bought that had totally wrong wheels on it.
essentially a NOS set, Robergel spokes- which is not a problem save odd threading.
front is fine but could use 1/2 turn more. Kroil time. The rear is weird- drive side spokes look good, the NDS... way too long- could use a bit more tension but concerned there will not be enough thread. I am repacking the hubs now and I do have a box or two thr Robergel spokes- will know tomorrow.
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Memories
I raced a 1976 Fuji Professional, (2) sets of Sanshin Pro-Am hubs, 3X. Training - Arc en Ciels with !300gm cottons. Race - Fiamme Ergal with Criterium Setas. 120 spacing, 5-speed. Most used FW (by far, training and racing+ 13-19 Winner.
If I had those wheels now, I'd build a bike around them in a flash Still have my old race front hub, laced to a Weinmann Concave. Looked at it last year. The bearings are perfect and as smooth as I have ever felt.
Ben
I raced a 1976 Fuji Professional, (2) sets of Sanshin Pro-Am hubs, 3X. Training - Arc en Ciels with !300gm cottons. Race - Fiamme Ergal with Criterium Setas. 120 spacing, 5-speed. Most used FW (by far, training and racing+ 13-19 Winner.
If I had those wheels now, I'd build a bike around them in a flash Still have my old race front hub, laced to a Weinmann Concave. Looked at it last year. The bearings are perfect and as smooth as I have ever felt.
Ben
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I have a set of the same on Tipo high-flange hubs. They clean up so easily and so well.
They renew the feeling of rolling out on a smooth, quiet, and capable C&V bike just as well.
They renew the feeling of rolling out on a smooth, quiet, and capable C&V bike just as well.
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No!
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Having overhauled, rehabilitated and serviced MANY wheels in the past few years, I mostly agree with branko_76 list. More is better and I both doubt a) the LBS will do all that is needed and have the skills to do so and b) you could afford the hours it takes them to. But the Utah winter is coming along soon so this is a great time to learn wheels. Get them ready for spring.
Having rehabilitated numerous vintage wheels, I would
- mount the wheels in a stand, a truing stand or something similar.
- place a drop of light oil (penetrant, mineral oil, 3 in 1, TriFlow) on each end of each spoke nipple.
- spin the wheel numerous times to get centrifugal force working the oil into the threads and the nipple rim interface.
- after a few days, fully detension the wheel to ensure all nipples turn freely and smoothly.
- inspect the rim and decide how flat and round it is. This is hard. Fully unbuild the wheel as discussed above if you're not sure. The rim must be flat and round. Clean and polish the hub and rim to your satisfaction. I don't do much of this as all my bikes are riders and the wheels get spooged up quickly anyway. I just want clean and presentable.
- slowly and evenly retension the wheel, keep an eye on runout, dish and hop as you progress. Correct along the way to keep things easier as you close in on done. Yup, you now need a truing stand or a viable alternative. Lots of threads here on alternatives. My stand is home made.
- read up a lot of final truing and tensioning. Too much to explain here. It takes me several days ( not many hours/day) and a few hours. I enjoy it and do get excited about 40 year old wheels. I could never afford the LBS bill to have them do it. It would be a couple of car payments.
If you look for an LBS to do all this, read up a LOT on how to do it so you'll know if they DO know how to do it properly. Be fussy and specific. Some shops will hand this to the least experienced wrench. You don't want that and you need to know how to evaluate their experience and standards of excellence. Talk is cheap, as we all know if these unprecedented times.
BTW, I'm in the freewheel total overhaul camp vs the "flush er out and drool some awl in" camp. I've seen too much. My LBS throws the in-op free wheels in the recycling and installs new. I doubt they even know how to overhaul one.
Having rehabilitated numerous vintage wheels, I would
- mount the wheels in a stand, a truing stand or something similar.
- place a drop of light oil (penetrant, mineral oil, 3 in 1, TriFlow) on each end of each spoke nipple.
- spin the wheel numerous times to get centrifugal force working the oil into the threads and the nipple rim interface.
- after a few days, fully detension the wheel to ensure all nipples turn freely and smoothly.
- inspect the rim and decide how flat and round it is. This is hard. Fully unbuild the wheel as discussed above if you're not sure. The rim must be flat and round. Clean and polish the hub and rim to your satisfaction. I don't do much of this as all my bikes are riders and the wheels get spooged up quickly anyway. I just want clean and presentable.
- slowly and evenly retension the wheel, keep an eye on runout, dish and hop as you progress. Correct along the way to keep things easier as you close in on done. Yup, you now need a truing stand or a viable alternative. Lots of threads here on alternatives. My stand is home made.
- read up a lot of final truing and tensioning. Too much to explain here. It takes me several days ( not many hours/day) and a few hours. I enjoy it and do get excited about 40 year old wheels. I could never afford the LBS bill to have them do it. It would be a couple of car payments.
If you look for an LBS to do all this, read up a LOT on how to do it so you'll know if they DO know how to do it properly. Be fussy and specific. Some shops will hand this to the least experienced wrench. You don't want that and you need to know how to evaluate their experience and standards of excellence. Talk is cheap, as we all know if these unprecedented times.
BTW, I'm in the freewheel total overhaul camp vs the "flush er out and drool some awl in" camp. I've seen too much. My LBS throws the in-op free wheels in the recycling and installs new. I doubt they even know how to overhaul one.
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That's the next important decision, what tubulars? This is my "Sunday go to church" bike now so they don't need to be a training, long wearing tubular. I want something supple and sexy and light. I'll probably wind up spending more on the wheels/tires than I did the whole bike, LOL!
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...
Thank you for pointing out some things that I hadn't thought about. The last freewheel I overhauled was the first one (and only one) I opened 30 plus years ago. After searching my studio apartment for hours trying to find all of the springs, pawls and tiny bearing that shot out of it, I made a mental note to never do that again.... But I'm with you, flushing and oiling is not the same as a complete overhaul. Maybe when I retire I'll take another stab at it, but only inside a uncluttered enclosure, maybe inside my camping tent...
Thank you for pointing out some things that I hadn't thought about. The last freewheel I overhauled was the first one (and only one) I opened 30 plus years ago. After searching my studio apartment for hours trying to find all of the springs, pawls and tiny bearing that shot out of it, I made a mental note to never do that again.... But I'm with you, flushing and oiling is not the same as a complete overhaul. Maybe when I retire I'll take another stab at it, but only inside a uncluttered enclosure, maybe inside my camping tent...
Having overhauled, rehabilitated and serviced MANY wheels in the past few years, I mostly agree with branko_76 list. More is better and I both doubt a) the LBS will do all that is needed and have the skills to do so and b) you could afford the hours it takes them to. But the Utah winter is coming along soon so this is a great time to learn wheels. Get them ready for spring.
Having rehabilitated numerous vintage wheels, I would
- mount the wheels in a stand, a truing stand or something similar.
- place a drop of light oil (penetrant, mineral oil, 3 in 1, TriFlow) on each end of each spoke nipple.
- spin the wheel numerous times to get centrifugal force working the oil into the threads and the nipple rim interface.
- after a few days, fully detension the wheel to ensure all nipples turn freely and smoothly.
- inspect the rim and decide how flat and round it is. This is hard. Fully unbuild the wheel as discussed above if you're not sure. The rim must be flat and round. Clean and polish the hub and rim to your satisfaction. I don't do much of this as all my bikes are riders and the wheels get spooged up quickly anyway. I just want clean and presentable.
- slowly and evenly retension the wheel, keep an eye on runout, dish and hop as you progress. Correct along the way to keep things easier as you close in on done. Yup, you now need a truing stand or a viable alternative. Lots of threads here on alternatives. My stand is home made.
- read up a lot of final truing and tensioning. Too much to explain here. It takes me several days ( not many hours/day) and a few hours. I enjoy it and do get excited about 40 year old wheels. I could never afford the LBS bill to have them do it. It would be a couple of car payments.
If you look for an LBS to do all this, read up a LOT on how to do it so you'll know if they DO know how to do it properly. Be fussy and specific. Some shops will hand this to the least experienced wrench. You don't want that and you need to know how to evaluate their experience and standards of excellence. Talk is cheap, as we all know if these unprecedented times.
BTW, I'm in the freewheel total overhaul camp vs the "flush er out and drool some awl in" camp. I've seen too much. My LBS throws the in-op free wheels in the recycling and installs new. I doubt they even know how to overhaul one.
Having rehabilitated numerous vintage wheels, I would
- mount the wheels in a stand, a truing stand or something similar.
- place a drop of light oil (penetrant, mineral oil, 3 in 1, TriFlow) on each end of each spoke nipple.
- spin the wheel numerous times to get centrifugal force working the oil into the threads and the nipple rim interface.
- after a few days, fully detension the wheel to ensure all nipples turn freely and smoothly.
- inspect the rim and decide how flat and round it is. This is hard. Fully unbuild the wheel as discussed above if you're not sure. The rim must be flat and round. Clean and polish the hub and rim to your satisfaction. I don't do much of this as all my bikes are riders and the wheels get spooged up quickly anyway. I just want clean and presentable.
- slowly and evenly retension the wheel, keep an eye on runout, dish and hop as you progress. Correct along the way to keep things easier as you close in on done. Yup, you now need a truing stand or a viable alternative. Lots of threads here on alternatives. My stand is home made.
- read up a lot of final truing and tensioning. Too much to explain here. It takes me several days ( not many hours/day) and a few hours. I enjoy it and do get excited about 40 year old wheels. I could never afford the LBS bill to have them do it. It would be a couple of car payments.
If you look for an LBS to do all this, read up a LOT on how to do it so you'll know if they DO know how to do it properly. Be fussy and specific. Some shops will hand this to the least experienced wrench. You don't want that and you need to know how to evaluate their experience and standards of excellence. Talk is cheap, as we all know if these unprecedented times.
BTW, I'm in the freewheel total overhaul camp vs the "flush er out and drool some awl in" camp. I've seen too much. My LBS throws the in-op free wheels in the recycling and installs new. I doubt they even know how to overhaul one.
#23
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Ignoring the cosmetic challenges for now, and having worked some many hundreds of wheels into a true and properly-tensioned state, I always use the same approach to bringing the wheel up to the required standard.
I start by putting the wheel in the truing stand and lubing both the spoke-nipple and nipple-rim interfaces with WD40 from an applicator bottle (WD40 will not go on attracting dust for months the way that oil will).
It can take considerable time for adequate penetration of the threads, which varies tremendously from one wheel to another. Spinning the wheel will make no difference at the thread level but I do spin the wheel initially to settle the lube.
I start the tensioning/truing process by initially checking that the wheel is true/round and that minor spoke tensioning can make it so. At this time I may observe either the need to tension the spokes unevenly to achieve true, or observe that some spoke nipples won't turn.
The stuck nipples can usually be freed by blasting the nipple with a propane torch for 5-6 seconds at the tip of a blue flame (being careful not to overheat the exposed spoke).
If the spoke tensions indicate that the rim is being held straight by uneven spoke tension, I then make marks on the rim so that I can apply force to bend the rim straighter before resuming tensioning/truing. It often takes more than one iteration of the truing/bending process to achieve even tensions and a straight wheel, all of which can consume considerable time.
Plucking spokes while truing the wheel allows me to better decide which spokes not to tighten in order to true the wheel. I hold a finger against one of any two crossing spokes since they will otherwise ring together, concealing their true tension.
At some point when the wheel true is good, I will go around each side of the wheel checking for equal spoke tensions. Correcting tight/loose spokes may then require another round of truing/bending to keep the rim straight!
The "bending" process I use is to put a 2X2 piece of wood on the floor and lay the marked high spot on the rim onto the wood, then push down to either side of the wood. I use a lot of variation of force and hand-spacing here depending on the rim type and overall circumstances, but I always have one or more Sharpie marks on the rim to allow accurate positioning.
I particularly try not to over-tension vintage wheels with 36h spoke counts.
Again, I do almost all wheels this way so as to save time by truing and tensioning at the same time to the extent possible. I do not de-tension a wheel in order to establish and/or correct rim true because I did it that way in the distant past and found that it took longer and really didn't always work well.
If a rim doesn't respond well to the above methods than I make the decision to recycle the rim.
That said, some wheel jobs do start with relieving tension of some over-tight spokes, and if the wheel responds badly to this then a very-bent rim is indicated. I may or may not attempt to bend back such a rim, it depends on the rim and on the standards of the intended application, as well as if it is a front or rear rim.
One more thing is that if I am building up a pair of used rims, I always use the better one for a rear wheel.
I start by putting the wheel in the truing stand and lubing both the spoke-nipple and nipple-rim interfaces with WD40 from an applicator bottle (WD40 will not go on attracting dust for months the way that oil will).
It can take considerable time for adequate penetration of the threads, which varies tremendously from one wheel to another. Spinning the wheel will make no difference at the thread level but I do spin the wheel initially to settle the lube.
I start the tensioning/truing process by initially checking that the wheel is true/round and that minor spoke tensioning can make it so. At this time I may observe either the need to tension the spokes unevenly to achieve true, or observe that some spoke nipples won't turn.
The stuck nipples can usually be freed by blasting the nipple with a propane torch for 5-6 seconds at the tip of a blue flame (being careful not to overheat the exposed spoke).
If the spoke tensions indicate that the rim is being held straight by uneven spoke tension, I then make marks on the rim so that I can apply force to bend the rim straighter before resuming tensioning/truing. It often takes more than one iteration of the truing/bending process to achieve even tensions and a straight wheel, all of which can consume considerable time.
Plucking spokes while truing the wheel allows me to better decide which spokes not to tighten in order to true the wheel. I hold a finger against one of any two crossing spokes since they will otherwise ring together, concealing their true tension.
At some point when the wheel true is good, I will go around each side of the wheel checking for equal spoke tensions. Correcting tight/loose spokes may then require another round of truing/bending to keep the rim straight!
The "bending" process I use is to put a 2X2 piece of wood on the floor and lay the marked high spot on the rim onto the wood, then push down to either side of the wood. I use a lot of variation of force and hand-spacing here depending on the rim type and overall circumstances, but I always have one or more Sharpie marks on the rim to allow accurate positioning.
I particularly try not to over-tension vintage wheels with 36h spoke counts.
Again, I do almost all wheels this way so as to save time by truing and tensioning at the same time to the extent possible. I do not de-tension a wheel in order to establish and/or correct rim true because I did it that way in the distant past and found that it took longer and really didn't always work well.
If a rim doesn't respond well to the above methods than I make the decision to recycle the rim.
That said, some wheel jobs do start with relieving tension of some over-tight spokes, and if the wheel responds badly to this then a very-bent rim is indicated. I may or may not attempt to bend back such a rim, it depends on the rim and on the standards of the intended application, as well as if it is a front or rear rim.
One more thing is that if I am building up a pair of used rims, I always use the better one for a rear wheel.
#24
Senior Member
My experience is if you detension the spokes enough and then spin the wheel, you can tell if the rim is true or not. If not, then you can proceed to fully unlace, etc.
Re polishing, I find that an old toothbrush works well for applying the polish, then buff by hand with a soft cloth.
Re polishing, I find that an old toothbrush works well for applying the polish, then buff by hand with a soft cloth.
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#25
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My experience is if you detension the spokes enough and then spin the wheel, you can tell if the rim is true or not. If not, then you can proceed to fully unlace, etc.
Re polishing, I find that an old toothbrush works well for applying the polish, then buff by hand with a soft cloth.
Re polishing, I find that an old toothbrush works well for applying the polish, then buff by hand with a soft cloth.
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