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Posting some info from another member re Coronovirus

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Posting some info from another member re Coronovirus

Old 03-19-20, 03:42 AM
  #76  
nicole.c
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Thanks for sharing... stay safe and try to stay home as much as possible.
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Old 03-19-20, 05:10 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
That may be true but the label on the other two doesn't mention viruses.

So you'd also take anti-bacterial medication for virus infections?
You're comparing apples and screwdrivers there. Basically, it is the same disinfectant for both but not at all the same drugs, and the labeling on the disinfectants is more about marketing than science. The Purell label says "germs" for crying out loud.

For some reason now obsolete, a marketing guy decided "antibacterial" sold better than "antiviral" or "kills germs" sold better than being specific.

The important info is on the ingredients list.
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Old 03-19-20, 05:14 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by freeranger View Post
All the accurate info we can get is helpful. But won't we all be glad when we can stop talking about it! Can't wait for it to pass, and I hope all can stay well, or if you are unlucky enough to become infected, that it isn't severe and you make a quick recovery. I'm sure we are all taking the necessary precautions, let's hope everyone else is also, and we get thru this ASAP.
In 6-18 months' time.

It's not going to go away in the next few weeks.
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Old 03-19-20, 06:50 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
I dont think there is a consensus on this matter. Best to err on the side of caution.
Agreed up to a point. If erring on the side of caution means making masks and gloves unavailable to medical personnel, it might be the worst thing an individual could do.

The hoarding of medical supplies by non-medical people needs to stop now. A lot more people are going to die if the medical personnel aren't adequately protected.
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Old 03-19-20, 06:53 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
I think you misunderstand the point of the article, which was to study the viability of the virus under various conditions and surfaces, including when held in an aerosol for a prolonged period. The team used a Goldberg drum apparatus, which maintains an aerosol in suspension for prolonged periods, so that the viability of the virus can be assessed. Also, bear in mind that the aerosol here was generated by a nebulizer apparatus, and there is no comment on whether the average droplet size generated (which is directly related to how long droplets would remain in suspension - the larger the drops, the faster they fall out of suspension) in this study relates to the average droplet size generated by a sneeze or cough. This study is NOT a comment on whether COVID is spread by aerosol, they merely said that it was "plausible" that it could be spread in this manner, given that it survived for several hours in an artificially-maintained aerosol
You are making assumptions about by understanding of the study.

My point of posting it is to question the idea that there is no chance of it being spread via aerosol.

The CDC and NIH are both currently saying that we are still learning about how the virus transmits. Therefore I found it is bit troubling when the OP quoted a supposed expert making the statement that is was definitely not transmitted by aerosol. That is a very dangerous thing to be saying if we do not in fact know that is true.

If we knew that you need to be literally coughed of sneezed on in your face (as the OP specifically stated) why the 6í distancing thing?
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Old 03-19-20, 07:09 AM
  #81  
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FWIW the aerosolized COVID19 has been detected, but only in very a specific environment. If that holds up (it's not 100% certain yet) it's produced by the intestines and was found in hospital restrooms, with some specific environmental conditions which weren't disclosed in the report I read. So it is possible, but very unlikely in normal interactions.
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Old 03-19-20, 07:13 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
The masks only help prevent spread of the disease when infected people wear them, so when they cough or sneeze they don't spray infected spit/snot droplets everywhere. They do not help a healthy person avoid the disease. If you're out in public wearing a mask and you touch an infected surface and then absentmindedly touch your face (such as to adjust your mask), the chances of you getting the virus are high.
CDC is saying that. WHO and others don't go that far. It often comes down to: the Hospitals need the masks so don't hoard them, and you're probably not using it right anyway.

I'm not wearing one, but I have considerable doubt that it's true that masks won't help people at all who are not infected.
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Old 03-19-20, 07:18 AM
  #83  
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HI Miele, there is some good info there so thanks to you and your friend for posting up. It's important to obtain and review data & opinion from different perspectives, sources. The following is a video explanation of the situation which is making the rounds and them thar interwebs, from outside the USA. The fellow is a German medical specialist and the video is ~10mins.

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Old 03-19-20, 07:27 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
FWIW the aerosolized COVID19 has been detected, but only in very a specific environment. If that holds up (it's not 100% certain yet) it's produced by the intestines and was found in hospital restrooms, with some specific environmental conditions which weren't disclosed in the report I read. So it is possible, but very unlikely in normal interactions.

The problem is that in society writ large, "abnormal" interactions abound. Also, lack of detection at this point may not be very meaningful as the research is, by necessity, still in early days.

Anyway, the NEJM letter states "This indicates that differences in the epidemiologic characteristics of these viruses probably arise from other factors, including high viral loads in the upper respiratory tract and the potential for persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 to shed and transmit the virus while asymptomatic.3,4 Our results indicate that aerosol and fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is plausible, since the virus can remain viable and infectious in aerosols for hours and on surfaces up to days (depending on the inoculum shed). These findings echo those with SARS-CoV-1, in which these forms of transmission were associated with nosocomial spread and super-spreading events,5 and they provide information for pandemic mitigation efforts.."

SARS-CoV-2 is Covid-19.

Lack of detection of aerosol could just be an artifact of the fact that it's harder to detect something that lasts for hours "in the wild" than it is something that lasts for days. Since our interactions occur in seconds, minutes, and hours, probability statements are probably premature.

Last edited by livedarklions; 03-19-20 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 03-19-20, 07:52 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The problem is that in society writ large, "abnormal" interactions abound. Also, lack of detection at this point may not be very meaningful as the research is, by necessity, still in early days.

Anyway, the NEJM letter states "This indicates that differences in the epidemiologic characteristics of these viruses probably arise from other factors, including high viral loads in the upper respiratory tract and the potential for persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 to shed and transmit the virus while asymptomatic.3,4 Our results indicate that aerosol and fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is plausible, since the virus can remain viable and infectious in aerosols for hours and on surfaces up to days (depending on the inoculum shed). These findings echo those with SARS-CoV-1, in which these forms of transmission were associated with nosocomial spread and super-spreading events,5 and they provide information for pandemic mitigation efforts.."

SARS-CoV-2 is Covid-19.

Lack of detection of aerosol could just be an artifact of the fact that it's harder to detect something that lasts for hours "in the wild" than it is something that lasts for days. Since our interactions occur in seconds, minutes, and hours, probability statements are probably premature.
I keep an open mind about it, but these aren't my assessments. I'm just repeating what medical researchers have written.

Isolated hospital rooms were checked for the aerosol suspension of the virus, which is a more controlled environment than out "in the wild". It's been repeated by different teams at different locations. Still, there is no certainty about it.
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Old 03-19-20, 08:01 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Agreed up to a point. If erring on the side of caution means making masks and gloves unavailable to medical personnel, it might be the worst thing an individual could do.

The hoarding of medical supplies by non-medical people needs to stop now. A lot more people are going to die if the medical personnel aren't adequately protected.
Agreed. I wasn't thinking of masks and hoarding, but that is a perfectly valid point.
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Old 03-19-20, 08:05 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I keep an open mind about it, but these aren't my assessments. I'm just repeating what medical researchers have written.

Isolated hospital rooms were checked for the aerosol suspension of the virus, which is a more controlled environment than out "in the wild". It's been repeated by different teams at different locations. Still, there is no certainty about it.

Right, the NEJM letter was just yesterday, so we're actually watching the data come in in real time.

I took the change of recommendations from limiting gatherings to 50 people to 10 to indicate that someone saw new data that was alarming about contagion. The timing seems to coincide with this NEJM letter.
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Old 03-19-20, 08:39 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Wearing a mask might help some in the prevention of the spread of this virus by an infected person. However, any mask MUST HAVE AN AIRTIGHT SEAL around the face and over the mouth and nose. Such a seal is usually uncomfortable after some time wearing such a snug fitting mask.
I worked as a hospital-based, acute care RN for over 20 years. One of the job requirements was annual training and fit-testing for N95 respirator masks. If you haven't been trained in their use, and/or recently fitted (because facial features can change), you're probably not getting the full benefit of the N95 respirator mask.
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Old 03-19-20, 09:54 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
isopropanol is a widely used disinfectant. I use regular store-bought rubbing alcohol, which is usually 70% isopropanol. It also comes in 91%, but 70% is the more effective disinfectant. I usually have a few bottles lying around, as itís good for cleaning/degreasing car- and bike parts. Good luck finding some in a store these days, but if you do, youíre good to go. I would avoid ingesting it - Iím sure itís not good for you, but it evaporates away pretty quickly so there shouldnít be any residue hanging around
Thanks for the input! Here in Ann Arbor a local distillery is offerring their alcohol with some cosmetics added, free in my bottle, as low cost hand sanitizer.
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Old 03-19-20, 10:16 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
That may be true but the label on the other two doesn't mention viruses.

So you'd also take anti-bacterial medication for virus infections?
No, because I'm not an idiot and I understand the difference between a bacterium and a virus. As I've said, not all viruses are alike when it comes to their sensitivity to disinfectants so, short of listing specific viruses that are sensitive, and thus confusing the hell out of the average user, they just don't mention viruses at all. What other option do they have?
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Old 03-19-20, 10:26 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
You are making assumptions about by understanding of the study.

My point of posting it is to question the idea that there is no chance of it being spread via aerosol.

The CDC and NIH are both currently saying that we are still learning about how the virus transmits. Therefore I found it is bit troubling when the OP quoted a supposed expert making the statement that is was definitely not transmitted by aerosol. That is a very dangerous thing to be saying if we do not in fact know that is true.

If we knew that you need to be literally coughed of sneezed on in your face (as the OP specifically stated) why the 6’ distancing thing?
Well OK, but my assumption of your understanding was based on your using the study to bolster your statement "A study just published in the New England Journal of Medicine finds that This Coronavirus DOES remain airborne and active in aerosol form for a period of time." - something that this study does NOT say, and which led me to assume that you didn't fully understand the study. Apologies. In this study, the virus remained airborne because they maintained its suspension in an artificial system, in artificially-generated droplets. Does the finding that the virus remains viable in droplet form have implications for mode of transmission? Of course. But to say that this study demonstrates that it remains airborne "in the wild" makes no more sense than me making the statement that "My dog DOES travel at 100 mph without getting short of breath" because I stuck it in the car and went out on the Interstate.

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Old 03-19-20, 10:28 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
That may be true but the label on the other two doesn't mention viruses.

So you'd also take anti-bacterial medication for virus infections?
It's not what's on the label that matters. You can label penicillin as chicken soup and it will still be an antibiotic. What is in the bottle matters. That has been explained to you more than once now. I hope you understand those explanations. Either way, let it go.
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Old 03-19-20, 10:47 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
Well OK, but my assumption of your understanding was based on your using the study to bolster your statement "A study just published in the New England Journal of Medicine finds that This Coronavirus DOES remain airborne and active in aerosol form for a period of time." - something that this study does NOT say, and I was just pointing this out. In this study, the virus remained airborne because they maintained its suspension in an artificial system, in artificially-generated droplets. Does the finding that the virus remains viable in droplet form have implications for mode of transmission? Of course. But to say that this study demonstrates that it remains airborne "in the wild" makes no more sense than me making the statement that "My dog DOES travel at 100 mph without getting short of breath" because I stuck it in the car and went out on the Interstate.

You were doing so well until that last sentence. They're clearly saying it's plausible that it's occurring in the wild because they're offering it as a "plausible" explanation for why it's so communicable. Also, the dog IS travelling at 100 mph without losing its breath, so that statement is a pretty weird example.

The study indicates that the question is still open.
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Old 03-19-20, 10:56 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
Well OK, but my assumption of your understanding was based on your using the study to bolster your statement "A study just published in the New England Journal of Medicine finds that This Coronavirus DOES remain airborne and active in aerosol form for a period of time." - something that this study does NOT say, and I was just pointing this out. In this study, the virus remained airborne because they maintained its suspension in an artificial system, in artificially-generated droplets. Does the finding that the virus remains viable in droplet form have implications for mode of transmission? Of course. But to say that this study demonstrates that it remains airborne "in the wild" makes no more sense than me making the statement that "My dog DOES travel at 100 mph without getting short of breath" because I stuck it in the car and went out on the Interstate.
OK, I see the confusion. What I meant was that it stays active when in aerosol form. Bad choice of words on my part. I did not mean to imply that this proved it in fact happens in the wild. I meant what it actually says: that it is plausible.
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Old 03-19-20, 11:05 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You were doing so well until that last sentence. They're clearly saying it's plausible that it's occurring in the wild because they're offering it as a "plausible" explanation for why it's so communicable. Also, the dog IS travelling at 100 mph without losing its breath, so that statement is a pretty weird example.

The study indicates that the question is still open.
Fair enough - not the most artful example, but what I came up with at short notice
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Old 03-19-20, 11:36 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
OK, I see the confusion. What I meant was that it stays active when in aerosol form. Bad choice of words on my part. I did not mean to imply that this proved it in fact happens in the wild. I meant what it actually says: that it is plausible.

I'll be honest--I think the criticism of you is misplaced. The study does show it remains viable in aerosol form. You did not state that that was a form of transmission from human to human which is the question that that NEJM letter raises.

We aren't going to settle that in this thread because it's still being investigated at this point.
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Old 03-19-20, 12:57 PM
  #97  
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I wonder if these lifestyle changes with social distancing and decontamination when you touch something will, to some extent, be the new norm regardless of if and when this current virus scare passes. Will we ever be shaking hands anymore?

I have to sell a carbon seatpost this weekend and trade some parts. But I don't see myself wiping the parts down with a Lysol wipe and tossing it to them from 6 feet away,

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Old 03-19-20, 01:19 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Jicafold View Post
I wonder if these lifestyle changes with social distancing and decontamination when you touch something will, to some extent, be the new norm regardless of if and when this current virus scare passes. Will we ever be shaking hands anymore?

I think the demise of the handshake may be permanent. It's been problematic for a while now.

I also think a lot of electronic procedures will get developed in the next few months that will stay in place. Quite possible this will result in more people working off-site on a permanent basis. That's been an obviously rational development held up by inertia for a very long time.
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Old 03-19-20, 04:23 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
This is a new virus. Much we still dont understand. How it transmit. It is too early to say you cannot get it by aerosol or things like that.

Take precaution. Do as much as you can.
It is not really that new of a virus and we have seen similar stuff to this and doctors in China were attempting to spread knowledge on the virus and were unfortunately stopped by their government. It is not to early for knowledge. The WHO has been quite clear on face masks as have other medical professionals that they are only for those that need it because they are infected or around those who are infected. They also must be used properly and disposed of properly. Just saying use them because we don't know is rather silly and does not help.

I do 1000% agree we should take precautions and attempt to be safe. A big part of all that is listening to medical professionals and organizations like the WHO and also bands like The Who to keep our spirits up.
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Old 03-19-20, 07:25 PM
  #100  
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I am seeing a stark contrast between Asia attitude and Western attitude. The Chinese people here in this part of Asia are all wearing simple surgerical mask when outside, because the govt here say it helps reduce the spread of disease and chance of catching it themselfs. We have been very effective in containing the virus so far. Same story in other East and Southeast Asia...where they effectively containing the virus. Because we took it seriously from the very beginning, and we do everything we can like have enough mask for everyone. We also have alot ofWesterners here, and I see alotof them refusing to wear mask in public and hanging out at bars for long period of time like its business as usual. very worrying.

The mask we the average citizen wear is the normal surgerical variety....not the N95 style. The govt here has been telling people they dont need N95 for day to day. N95 is reserved for medical professionals.

The conventionla wisdom here in Asia is that even a simple cloth mask is much better than nothing. it will stop you from touch your face with your hands, which is a huge way to transmit it.
Studies shown that people touching their own face every 3 minutes, and not even realize it.

If you buy a box of normal surgerical mask, you are not depriving medical workers of his or her mask.
because the type they use, the N95, is not the same as yours.

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