guy153

Yes except it will be too narrow for rear wheels. I did use some old fork dropouts on my homemade stand but actually rear axles are 1mm larger diameter so you have to file them out a bit too.

billnuke1 

I pretty much have always bought what I saw the pros using for certain jobs...then just made the decision to stick with Park Tools for my shop’s “anchor tools” and built out from there...eBay, etc always have them for differing prices, Craigslist has been very good to me for pro bike stands and truing stands...just be ready to move fast...PayPal at the ready and know what you are looking at...I have also fostered relationships with the local bike shops and can usually get good prices on my needed tools...also, there’s always an also, try to find the tool that calibrates the arms on the stand...I have one that one of the shops uses on their stand...

HerrKaLeun

Make sure it can support your future wheelsizes. For example, older one can't fit 29+ or fatbike wheels. Same with TA axles.

billnuke1 

Looking quickly at the Park Tool website...you can buy the upgrades to cover these concerns...benefit of buying from a large company...

RGMN

Learned this from a master wheelbuilder - If it is a TS-2 style stand NEVER trust that the indicators are centered. Get the centering gauge and check it every time you use it. Or get a better truing stand.

FWIW after he told me this I started checking, and sure enough the indicators have been off center on every single one I've checked. They've been off on the ones I've used in the shops I worked in, and my personal TS-2.2 the indicators move every time I use it. The TS-2 stands are great shop tools but not precision tools to build precision wheels.

sweeks

I've built several wheels with this stand. I got it on sale for $35. It's not as wobbly as it looks; OK for a hobbyist. I'd prefer the Park stand though.

Bill Kapaun

Obviously you need to download the instructions from PARK and set it up correctly.
I picked up a TS-2 for a song because of this problem.
Now I can do anything between 100-135mm and it IS centered.
I'm not sure how a centering gauge would correct this problem unless you had one for each OLD you build.

cpach

Aside from compatibility concerns cheaper stands tend to be less rigid, so there's sometimes some inaccuracy when a wheel is first spun which stabilizes after a short moment. This slows down building a little. Other than that nicer stands adjust faster, and may have better abilities to measure dish. Also there's not a lot to TA compatibility--if the stand can open wide enough to fit the ends of the axle, you can always shove a 10mm wrench through the hub and tighten everything down. If you only build occasionally for yourself you can get away with a amateur quality stand and it will mostly effect speed rather than quality. I used to have an older version of https://www.amazon.com/Minoura-Porta.../dp/B008ENQ39W. My builds on it were solid, but I am happy to have a TS2 now, and use a TS 2.2 at work. Worked with a Products | Birzman for a while too--was a bit nicer than the Park, but no big deal really.

RGMN

You must be lucky because mine was setup at Park Tools (they're just down the road from me) and won't hold center. Every mechanic I've worked with says the same thing about the TS-2 - they're workhorses but they aren't precision tools. I've usually found that the stands that hold center perfectly have never been checked.

Bill Kapaun

I did not notice one word about following my instructions and ACTUALLY setting it yourself.

billnuke1 

It’s always there...no need to go get it...checked every time...never had a problem...things get bumped...dials, handles get turned in moving...I’d rather know before the wheel is done, not after...

I always know where it is, too...

RGMN

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I CENTER AND ADJUST MY TS-2.2 TRUING STAND EVERY TIME I USE IT. I keep the centering gauge and 2 19mm wrenches on the pegboard behind the stand just because they get used so often. And I check the centering every time I need to remove and reinstall the wheel in the stand. Center will have shifted EVERY TIME.

Usually I check just because I'm anal, but I do like to know how much my center will be off. It gives me an idea how much I'll need to fix the dish on a wheel. A dishing tool always works, and even the cheapest is more accurate than a self-centering truing stand.

And I lied about my stand being setup by Park Tool. I forgot that was my last stand, which got sold off as part of the assets of my buddy's bike shop when it went under. I had loaned it to him because his TS-2 stand was so worn out it would jam. Unfortunately the bank shut him down and seized it as part of his assets before I could get it back. My current TS-2.2 (yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment) was purchased new about 3 years ago. The DT Swiss truing stand I really wanted was just too much money for how often I use a truing stand.

Bill Kapaun

Ignore list since you don't pay attention.

Jack Ryan

I'm thinking just buying one is the way to go. Something that fits in a vise to use it if there is such a thing.

RGMN

AWESOME -I'm on someone's ignore list. I guess it isn't clear when that I set up and adjust my truing stand every time I use it means that it is actually me following Park's instructions setting up the stand.

This is always the problem with inexpensive truing stands - if they flex they slow you down, and if the flex is bad enough you're not 100% sure if what you are doing is truing the wheel or compensating for a stand. That's where the higher end truing stands excel - they are solid. As much as I bash the centering of the Park TS-2.2 indicators the one thing it has going for it is solid when you're using it. Just don't trust the dish that comes out of it. And it would be nice if it had a separate roundness indicator.

I've used several of the low-end Minoura truing stands and even the bottom of the line ones are pretty good. They may not have all the features but they are usually pretty solid unit. I still have a fold-up Minoura truing stand that gets thrown in with the travel tool kit when I go places to ride.

LV2TNDM

Unfortunately, with the COVID-19 economic meltdown, there may be a few used shop tools available in the near future

Russ Roth

They're perfectly fine for building precision wheels as long as you understand that the tool isn't accurate and know how to compensate for the fact. I've used at least a dozen different ones and each was out of wack in its own way and just like you do I tried centering some and found by the next time it was wrong and I was wasting my time, so I skipped the whole adjusting the stand and just went to adjusting the wheel accounting for the stand. Have actually found that with the stand perfectly centered it was harder to build a wheel since it required skewing the wheel off-center to avoid having it rub on both feelers and not knowing exactly which the moment it did so. By the stand being slightly off-center I can always flip the wheel to check that it is where it needs to be and have the assurance of what feeler is touching and just how much I need to adjust.

branko_76 

I think a master wheel builder could build a good set of wheels on a cheap, wobbly truing stand, but for amateurs such as myself, a solid, accurately manufactured tool will help to eliminate some variables that those with less experience may be unaware of.

RGMN

There used to be a local wheel builder that built absolutely gorgeous wheels, always straight and round and perfectly tensioned. Labels always were perfectly placed, never had a mark on anything. The wheel builder was completely blind, he built everything by touch. His truing stand: an old fork with one leg cut off, stuck into a hole in the workbench. For an indicator he used his finger running along the rim. It was truly amazing to watch him build a wheel and not because he was blind. It just seemed like he never moved enough to build a wheel. One moment it was a pile of parts, and with just a few motions of his hands it was a wheel. Truly poetry in motion. He would tell everyone that he felt sorry for us sighted people trying to build wheels. He said our vision fools us on what the wheel is really doing.

sdmc530

I was going to drop some money on the Park Tool version, but I was on craigslist one day and a guy had a Sunlight folding version for $20. I called and nabbed it up right off. Its not as fancy or feature packed as the PT version BUT it does what I need it to do and the fact that it folds up and I can store it is actually really nice. I am not disappointed in it at all!

However if I was a wheel builder or had to do more than my 4-6 wheels per year I probably would want a higher end one. But for my home use is really has been great.

WizardOfBoz

Agree with the idea of using a separate dish tool, but I'd argue that if you set the thing up right, the centration is not bad. And once you set it up it should be good for a while. Last, if you use a dish gauge and it shows centration, and the TS-2 (I have a TS2.2) is well set up with no slop, and it AGREES with the dish gauge, you probably can use the stand centration for most of the work and check it with the gauge, with touch up, if needed. But it can be set up pretty tight. Then again, I'm a engineer (3 degrees!) wrench monkey (7 years at a bike store, and perhaps 5 working in a machine shop) with infinite patience (at least for things non-human). Plus, I'm an idiot: I bought the Park centering tool for the TS2/2.2.

As I said, I got a TS2.2. I remember Perry Oksiuta of Racine Cyclery fabbing and truing wheels with a similar stand. He always amazed me with how fast he could build a really good wheel.

RGMN

If we're going to start throwing around experience I'm also an engineer. Only 1 degree but 35+ years experience. I'm one of the grey beards that gets called in when the PhDs can't figure out why something isn't working. Spent 4 years as a race car mechanic (CanAm, TransAm, SuperVee. Always a kick to watch something you put together from parts rip down the straight at 220mph.) Worked as a mechanic in local bike shops on and off for the last 25 years primarily to get the discount. Was certified as a Campagnolo specialist at the behest of a local shop that wanted to become a Campagnolo Proshop. Still do custom builds for a couple local shops.

For me the precision of a TS-2.2 is outside what is acceptable. Easily a 1/16" variation every time you pop a wheel in and out. Well used shop stands will see 1/4" or more. The design and tolerances of a self-centering style truing stand can't do much better than that. Too many moving parts, too many tolerances to get to a reasonable variation. There is a reason the top quality truing stands like a VAR Villum or a P&K Lie are not self-centering. If a 1/16" variation in centering is acceptable to you then its a fine tool. But when I'm putting together a $15,000+ C64 for a customer wheel trueness better be less than .125". It should be less than .020". The TS-2.2 can't get there with the stock indicators, or with the dial indicator they sell for it (guess how I know.) So you use it to do the initial build and truing, then use a dish gauge to get it centered, then stand to touch it up, then verify its still centered, then set the tensions, check the trueness, check the center, repeat until it is perfect. Since I suck a wheel building it takes me a while to get them that straight and round. Fortunately most builds now use factory built wheels. If they don't I have an arrangement with a local wheel builder, she builds the wheels for me much faster I can do them, and they are straight, round, and perfectly tensioned. My TS-2.2 tends to take up space, only getting used infrequently (about once a week), and gets setup and adjusted every time.

Russ Roth

Apparently I've been slowing down some, from spokes, hub and rim to built wheel took almost 1.5 hours each today. Spoke prep, lace, lube, get it close to proper tension, true, round, verify all the tensions are virtually the same, final tension, true, verify still round, stress, and finish. I find if there's care taken in getting the spokes turned to the same point after its laced and lubed that there isn't a need to check tension till its nearly to full tension, usually after making sure all the tension is the same its only necessary to turn the spokes a 1/4-1/2 a turn and then stress the wheel before making sure the wheel is perfectly straight and round. Over checking tension just wastes time.

L134 

From the P&KLie instructions:

”make a mark ...on top of the wheel axle.
every time you put in this wheel in the wheel holder you must have the mark on top as before.
small eccentricity failure of the wheel axle will be multiplied to the rim. With this measuring this failure has no influence on the center measuring.”

could popping the wheel in and out be the source of the inconsistency you are seeing?

WizardOfBoz

Didn't mean to throw my experience around. I'm a PhD, but I've worked in enough plants to be the cause of why "something isn't working". As in "What if we set the controls to this, what happens then?". Fortunately for you, we didn't have a Bat Phone to your office so I had to learn to fix the stuff myself.
Your experience is impressive. I worked on cars (59 T-Bird, 67 GTO) before I got degrees. Never quite got to 220mph. Working on race cars sets a high bar. Pretty clear if you put the thing back together right. I suppose you've read all the Carrol Smith books?

Well, my stand is pretty new. I don't think I'm getting 1/16" variation, but I'm probably a lot more careful (try to be repeatable in the force used - or absence of force) than most shop hands when putting the wheels in. When I compare with a dishing tool I'm seeing maybe a maximum 1/32" (about 0.032", close to your number of 0.020), which would mean the wheel is moving 1/64". Mostly, it seems spot on. And flipping the wheel gives me exactly the same position. This is by eye but I don't think I'm too far off. I could put a bunch of Starrett dial indicators on the thing to check. A couple points:
1) We agree that a dishing tool should always be used as the final arbiter.
2) Your paragraph begins "For me...", and cites the example "when I'm putting together a $15,000+ C64". That's pretty rarified air. This, plus your experience, suggests that your tolerances are about as tight as anyone's in the field.

I think that the paradigm I suggested originally was pretty close to your methodology. I take pains to get the T2.2 centered, and to make sure that the adjusting collars and screws are fairly tight. Build the wheel (and I've only built a few). Use the stand for gross adjustment, check with dish gauge at intervals. But if the gauge shows me 1/32 off, I can put it in the stand, note where my rim is in relation to the indicator, and adjust the spokes to move the thing 1/64. But then check with the dish gauge. And do the tension check, prestress the spokes, re-do (with the stand) centration and roundness and (with the gauge) dish or absence thereof. I guess my point could be summarized as "Yes, you have to do a final check with a gauge, and you should do some interim gauge checks, but if you adjust the stand carefully and pay attention to both gauge and stand, you don't have to pull the wheel from the stand so often." I think that this is the methodology that my colleague at (And later owner of) the Schwinn shop I worked in as a kid. He probably built 3-4 wheels a week for 35 years this way. I did check some of the fancier wheels he built (e.g. Campy Nuovo Record hubs, wheels used in Paramounts and Raleigh Professionals). Spot on.

The point you make about the size (and weight - the TS-2.2 not a lightweight) is something for the OP to consider. If he/she has a big workshop, leaving the stand out is very convenient. If this is for use in an apartment, then one of the lighter (And cheaper) units would be preferable.

PS: good to know about the dial indicators offered. I have a suitcase full of older Starretts that are pretty good, so if I do set my TS-2.2 up with indicators, I'd machine the holders and use those. But for me, "by eye" seems good enough. Not sure what a Starrett dial indicator that measures "tenths" gives me. Not pushing 500 watts on a leg of the TdF anytime soon. Alas.