Iride01 

I'd ask another cardiologist unless you have some condition, blockage or whatever. Mine tells me I can run my heart as fast as I want for as long as I'm able to. Glycogen is going to run out and slow me down way before I damage my heart from what I've read and been told. But I'm only 62 and maybe his advice will change when I get older.

Perhaps by trying to stay that low you are totally in the wrong gears and truly just tiring yourself out. But certainly the conditioning advice others gave you will go a long way even with that limit.

Maelochs

I hope @MrJames67 keeps posting over time so we can see what works for him. As i get older, I need to keep learning new tricks.

MrJames67 

Thank you. Yes, I have an exceptional cardiologist and a condition. A partially blocked coronary artery ten years ago, not enough for a stent but enough to scare me. Result of lifelong typical American diet. No family history. Today, I have almost 4000 missed beats a day, VPBs, not AFIB, and some other abnormalities. Followed Ornish and Esselstyn dietary advice, as did Bill Clinton who was much worse than I with atherosclerosis, as are so many today. It was ten years ago I had the angiogram. I do strikingly well on his annual stress treadmill tests but at mid-seventies, know I could drop tomorrow. I don't kid myself but I exercise, use best current nutritional science, and hope and plan for the best. My twice a year thorough blood panel with additional Vitamin D and PSA tests are better than when I was fit and 30. So I'm apparently doing everything perfectly according to the docs. No room for improvement there with what goes down the mouth hole or exercising enough.

I have a question for others about spinning, say 90 cadence. Let's say an average (that's me) cyclist is put on a trainer with the resistance set very low. Not zero as in downhill, but very light resistance. Shouldn't he be able to do that for at least half an hour? How about at 80rpm? I have no idea sitting here typing. I'd check thisout at the gym on a recumbent (haven't tried that machine yet) but gym is closed until further notice because of SARS-CoV-2.

MrJames67 

Yes, you got it exactly. 24 and 32 cogs. And yes it is a slow speed on this incline I use, I'd say 3.5 mph is close because I walk it a lot at 3 to 4 mph using that metronome on my phone. Did 141 miles on my hill two years ago March. Half a measured mile downhill to a bridge and back up. On the bike on that last steepest part, where I've been practicing and my legs burn out, it is a short stretch. So short in fact that I'm embarrassed and why I made my initial frustrated post. I'll measure it today if I can. Yesterday, I practiced mostly in 34 - 32 gears. I used the 24 -32 (20.5 gear inches) in my original post because other than the first few of these short climbs on a given day where I do it fresh out, my first climb, with 34 -32s and last week two days a 34 -26 on the first run up, after a couple at those higher gears, my legs give out only a little further length at 24 -32, even though the pedal pressure is less. But I've been alternating between the 24 32 and 34 -32. Seems like I can do many more of the 34 -32 than the previous week before last, with all this practice ,so I'm encouraged. I've been trying to keep the conditions constant for comparison, staying in the seat, no panting. I'll vary my behavior today. I couldn't try that standing - mashing either ors, or both, yesterday because of weather. Will do it today if it's dry and winds are normal.

Iride01 

Yep... I'd be somewhat scared and cautious too. When you said you were supposed to stay below 130, I suspected it was a partial blockage. However since you hadn't mentioned it, I was wondering if possibly your heart doctor was just trying to mold you to another perception of how a person should live. My GP thinks cycling is dangerous and I should quit. Not sure how much longer I'll use him, but he is one that communicates well with me.

I'm not trying to answer this but just adding some thought. You already have a high cadence evidently. I'm just seeing some similarity to what you said you are normally doing and what it took for me to get to a higher average cadence.

I had a hard time trying to get my average cadence up into and over 80 rpm when I started seriously riding in my early 50's. Eventually I read something somewhere that suggested to go out for an hour or so ride and not let my HR get over a particular number.... and guess what, I think it was 130 maybe 135 bpm. Also, I was supposed to keep the rpm over 80. In order to do that I had to stay in some low gears which felt odd. But after doing that for several rides, I can now spin reasonably well. Certainly while doing that I had to make exceptions for some hills that were too steep for my gearing.

And while some of the others have told how they switched from high cadence low torque to lower cadence higher torque, I'm not sure that the latter is the complete picture. I think it might be doing one method till you reach your bell curve on that, and then switch to the other till hitting your bell curve again, then repeat the cycle or find something else significant to change up.

Strong legs should go a long way toward letting you push a higher gear, but I don't know how that is going to affect your HR. For me, my legs run out of energy and seize up irregardless of HR. I guess a very localized type of bonk. Although I've been thinking I need to work on leg muscle strength and some of these other responses have convinced me to do that too. I'm not certain though how much strength training should be done on the bike. But I'm going to change up something, because I've plateaued on what I'm doing now.

fastcarbon

It sounds to me that you just need more time training on hills. At 77 I can still do a 100 mi ride above 7000 feet elevation with 7000 feet of climbing with a lot of 8% to 15% grades because I do a lot of climbing rides. I do ride a 15 lb. bike and weigh 180 lb. and can't spin above about 60 - 70 RPM in my lowest 36 x 30 gear if I am above a 6% grade. Of course as you get older your climbing speed drops. I spend a lot of time around 6 - 7 mph starting around 6%. grades. This is probably due to losing maximum heart rate with age and loss of muscle ( I have lost 20 lb. of muscle in the last 15 years); I have become a spinner to develop power having gone from a crusher around 80 - 85 RPM to trying to hold about 95 to 110 and up to 130 RPM in most rides.

MrJames67 

A century at that altitude and that much climbing??! So it's a light bike. So what. And to me, that 36 x 30 is not very low for steep hills and never was. Thank you for all the good advice and inspiration. Fastcarbon, only months older than me , you are now my role model. For real.

Maelochs

Another android.

fastcarbon

I just think we need to keep working on our fitness and climbing is part of it. It is difficult but perhaps the key to survival.

fastcarbon

Believe me on those 15% grades I wish I was an Android.

Carbonfiberboy 

Leg strength: Depending on what I'm doing the next day, I've been doing either 6 X 1' X 5' or 6 X 30" X 5' max effort intervals. The 1 minute is at the max you can hold for that minute. Takes a bit of practice but the 6 intervals sure provide that. Because of the long rests between, this will have a major effect on your leg strength. Say one at 1' and one at 30" per week. I do best at 95-100 rpm on these (meaning that I can hold a higher power or speed) but everyone's different. I do them indoors, which makes everything much simpler. If I know my goal speed or power, I try to hold that for the entire set, not letting myself wimp out on the last couple. OTOH if I still have something left, next time I increase the effort.

My climbing technique is to know what cadence and HR or power I can maintain for the climb or for a similar climb by experience. I hold that HR or power for the entire climb whether it's 15' or 2 hours. I climb seated but shift to a big gear and stand for a minute or as long as I can manage it every 10' by the clock. My best cadence is 75-83. I try not to take any breaks, just keep the effort constant.

Thomas15

This is a very informative thread. I do not have anything constructive or useful to add to this discussion,


The questions raised here are on my mind also. I live in an area with hills and I'm trying to improve my hill climbing performance. I have been doing some reading and have spent quite a bit of time over the winter on a trainer doing hills. On my mind is trainers are nice and better than sitting on an easy chair, but it's not riding outside on the road. I'm certainly going to do better this spring than what I did last fall but I'm thinking that I still have a long way to go.


Starting next week I'm going to begin interval training on my street, which is hilly, see where that takes me.Going to try different HR and cadence, see what works best for me.

BlazingPedals

It sounds to me like the OP is reaching his aerobic limit, not necessarily experiencing muscle failure. If that's the case, he should be able to pull over, recover his heart rate, then continue. Whereas with a pure bonk, he'd be done for the day. A good thing to try would be use a lower cadence, either by going slower or by using one gear higher.

Thomas15

This evening I rode up the Alpe d'Zwift which was my 25th time since December. In the past I've always stayed seated but tonight I tried to stand for a short time every 5-8 minutes. I wasn't really pushing myself overall but I think after I have some time to refine my technique, standing from time to time will be helpful for me. Thanks for the suggestion.

Maelochs

I do the same, just by taking short (5-8 second) breaks while climbing. I lose momentum but catch my breath and get a little blood to the legs, and it keeps me going a little further.

MrJames67 

Original Poster here. After a week I've noticed improvement from several of the ideas here people generously gave. I've extended my distance up the hill using a higher gear. I don't have to wait as long for recovery, only about 2 minutes at most, sometimes about 1 minute does it. Then the quick coast back down my hill. Also what Berner and others suggested is that I simply need more practice after winter layoff. What has also helped me is standing for about 10 seconds in order to reach that finish line at the top (that mark doesn't change; it's how I'm measuring progress). Deep breathing smoothly and consistently through mouth every 3 revolutions, and dropping cadence to 80 (80+ when doing the standing) have noticeably helped a lot. In my case muscle recovery doesn't seem correlated with my heart rate, which has never gone above 116 tops when I'm breathing harder than normal up that hill. Usually it's around 108 when I'm starting to strain. Otherwise pulse is in the 90's on easier hills or when starting out on this one. I don't start breathing harder until the last third up at its steepest. And this is not a long hill. With me it is when recovering fairly normal breathing that my legs are ready to go again, that's my cue to start; as I said earlier I have never panted nor been unable to carry on a conversation talking to the local noisy geese and other birds. We'll find out about my improvements a month from now. I'm happy with any improvement! To sum it up, as I heard Alberto Contador say in a video about stamina up hills to a semi-pro who was panting and mashing to keep up with him on a practice climb "Need more training." Thanks everyone.

nomadmax 

Before you go out and bust a gut training, get to a doctor and have the pump and a full CBC checked. If all is well, get out there and learn to suffer

MrJames67 

Thank you nonadmax. A good warning. I had a CBC as I do twice a year. All 7 tests are excellent. And cardiologist visits and tests. So all is well. I can't use that as an excuse. However I draw the line at busting a gut or suffering. Show me the money and paid in advance. Medals and certificates and trophies and beating the other guy, I never understood. Life is too short for suffering. "We're not here for a long time; we're here for a Good Time!" Training and reasonable exertion for good health, sure. That said, for Contador's $17 million I would have made an exception and suffered had I the talent.

Clyde1820

Was once good enough to challenge some leaders in some races, back in the day. But I never did do it for the medals or "wins." For me, it was always about the fact I improved. Knowing I was getting healthier and staying that way. Knowing I was successfully finding "the answer" in the activity ... whether that was "finding" myself, creating a bit of meditative space (despite all the hard work), or just enjoying time with buddies (despite all the hard work). There's something inherently satisfying about all of that.

One nice thing about continual striving for slight improvements: they come, eventually. And that helps with avoiding "bonking" and failure to shed lactic acid, avoiding dehydration and over-exertion. Takes a long time. Too long, seemingly. But it's worth it, those little improvements. Even if it ends up nowhere near "good" enough to be a leader or winner in a competition.

These days, on the bike for me, it's about the journey and not the destination. At a much more sedate pace, of course. Stopping to smell the roses more often has its own rewards.

Glad that you've got a clean bill of health from the doc. That's always nice.

joseruivo

I 'd like to sugest some techniques you could try to get to the top of the climb pedaling:

1) Definitelly try lowering your cadence, as others already sugested - it worked for me!!
2) For added strenght, try grabing the bars and pulling them towards you, at the same time you push the pedals away from you, emphasising forward movement of the pedals (if you ride clipless or with toe clips at least).
3) If anything else fails, zigzag your way to the top, going left-right left-right - it's easier to go uphill at a, say, 45º direction, rather going straight uphill. Naturally it takes longer, but you might be able to get to the top without having to stop all toghether.

Good luck!

MrJames67 

Thank you joseruivo. I found that dropping into 80's cadence helped. I don't ride clipless or toe clips, although I used to do clipless years ago. Instead I have the thin and grippy RaceFace Chester MTB pedals on my bikes. No complaints. You are the first to mention the zigzagging in this thread and because I'm on a lonely road, that's exactly what I have been doing at the end sometimes. Or do figure eights and circles because the road is all mine. Doing forty-fives back and forth when climbing Isure helps and avoids stopping too soon. But I didn't mention it because on any road with traffic it could be a literal killer if someone took this advice and just one time not see that car coming behind them as they ride into the middle of the road. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened. I use a EVT Safe Zone helmet mirror to always check behind me before leaving my edge of the road "lane." Even on my mostly empty road. I've tried many mirrors, and this EVT is not as inexpensive as some; but I recommend it without reservation and in town has saved me more than once from being hit from the back. Not good for the health! It 's not wise in my judgment to skimp on mirrors and helmets -- any money saved is no good when your new address is the hospital or funeral home.

joseruivo

Hi MrJames,

Can you "pedal forward"with those pedals? Maybe if you drop your heels? I imagine that for some reaon you didn't like clipless... I think you should try toe clips, then (without straps)! It's a lot more eficient than a "standard" push down pedal. The toe clips cost about 5 (usd or euros) are easy to assemble, don't require special shoes, aren't dificult to engage - you can keep pedaling even if you don't clip at first on steep climb or going away from traffic lights - and ate the easiest thing to "disengage" - just pull your foot backwards or sideways.

Where I live there's a climb with parts that go into high 20%,nearly 30% inclination,and zigzaging has been the only way how I was able to get to the top of it (so far). I normally can hear the rare cars coming up, as they rev high to get up the climb too.

Keep trying, keep safe!

philbob57

My memory says that in the '80s, there was a Bicycling article stating that the cadence was ... I'm excising this comment, because john m flores remembers the article accurately, and there's no point in leaving misinformation in a post when it can be edited out.

john m flores 

I remember the same article but I recall it differently; if your lungs hurt your gearing is too low (over spinning), and if your legs hurt then your gearing is too high (over mashing). I have ridden with that in mind ever since.

MrJames67 it sounds like you have strength in your legs from the gym. I think lowering your cadence by using higher gears is the right thing to play with and it seems like you are already seeing results. Keep playing around with your gearing - even doing it within a climb of your hill, much like the old Bicycling article said.

CAT7RDR

^^^^^What I remember from the '80's was a 52/42 crank and a 11/21 6 speed cassette. Climbing was a labor of love because it sure as hell didn't feel good.