Gearboxes for bikes
#1
aka Tom Reingold
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Gearboxes for bikes
This video explains the ups and downs of gearboxes for bikes. It also showed some innovations that most of us don't know about.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
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#3
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Just 5% power loss?
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The gizmos are nifty, but downhill racing is a specialized niche within a niche in the bicycle world with very little application outside the discipline.
I tried to imagine a bicycle drivetrain for downhill touring. Yeah. You wouldn't need one.
I tried to imagine a bicycle drivetrain for downhill touring. Yeah. You wouldn't need one.
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#5
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I was always shocked when I worked on modern internal hub gearing. At the extremes of the gear range turning the crank felt like mixing pudding.
Of course, clutched RDs also feel like hell.
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Trying to wrap my head around how the 1st & 2nd gen CVT boxes work, gives me a headache.
But I want one!
But I want one!
#9
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Yah, I saw that too. Just proves how laughable they are compared to a 100% reliable and easy to use Rohloff14 or SA 3 is.
Defaileurs in a box. hahahahahaha
Defaileurs in a box. hahahahahaha
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Pinion is the undisputed winner right now. The one Nicolai developed in the 00’s lost out, I suppose it was too DH specific. It had a high output shaft so it could do high pivot suspension without an idler.
I don’t think Shimano has a use for their parent right now. It shares too much real estate with STEPS.
I don’t think Shimano has a use for their parent right now. It shares too much real estate with STEPS.
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Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
#12
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The problem with rohloff is that it cannot handle torque. For a heavier rider the smallest permissible chainring/cog ratio means the gearing is going to be miserably high for steeper hills. A derailleur in a box would solve that as there's practically no way to overload such a system. Sadly a compact high range derailleur in a box doesn't exist.
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I think the enclosed derailleur gear box is the right solution. With aero carbon frames, there is typically and increasingly a lot of room in that BB area. Same with the area between the BB and the front tire- that area needs to be filled in for aero. You can put the gearbox there. The point is to get the cassette cluster and the two derailleurs out of the air stream. The rear axle and Q-factor can also be narrower. A further evolution is for the entire final drive chain be enclosed in a carbon case. Now everything can be run in a wet bath and there is no mess on the outside.
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I think the enclosed derailleur gear box is the right solution. With aero carbon frames, there is typically and increasingly a lot of room in that BB area. Same with the area between the BB and the front tire- that area needs to be filled in for aero. You can put the gearbox there. The point is to get the cassette cluster and the two derailleurs out of the air stream. The rear axle and Q-factor can also be narrower. A further evolution is for the entire final drive chain be enclosed in a carbon case. Now everything can be run in a wet bath and there is no mess on the outside.
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Low mechanical efficiency and increased weight. What's not to like? People have been patenting bicycle gear boxes for about 130 years. They are ALWAYS heavier and experience significant efficiency problems. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Another mechanical engineer's wet dream.
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I don't know how they measured that loss, but one advantage of the internal derailleur system is that the chain line is always inline and never crooked. On a conventional derailleur bike, The drivetrain loss probably varies greatly depending on which cassette cog you are on. Also- with the enclosed case the chain can be constantly oiled. That ought to offset some of that power loss.
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I don't know how they measured that loss, but one advantage of the internal derailleur system is that the chain line is always inline and never crooked. On a conventional derailleur bike, The drivetrain loss probably varies greatly depending on which cassette cog you are on. Also- with the enclosed case the chain can be constantly oiled. That ought to offset some of that power loss.
#19
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I miss my old Raleigh 3 speed with Sturmey-Archer “gearbox “. A bombproof tank of a transportation device.
Mine was similar to this:
Mine was similar to this:
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Check out Rei Bronson on YT. He is an outlier big tall guy, 310 lbs at least. He did a tour in SE Asia in 2010 on a LHT
He munched the pawls in 4 hubs and 3 rims in the first 3,000 miles. One was a 40H boutique hub, no better.
They are no stronger than the pawls on my SA hubs. They are prone to muck up and they are NOT so easy to clean.
If you need crazy low gears, then that's your problem.
E bikes soon turn defaileurs to mush just as fast, if not worse than a Rohloff14, that now has an E special I heard.
It's a laughable MYTH that my Rohloff is less efficient than a LHT at 2/3 the loaded weight. Mine gets better every day. 19,300 miles with NO problem but the chains.
Rei did buy a Rohloff after, but never updated and quit vlogging.
Me and my bike were 290 lbs, 75% of his total. LOL
He munched the pawls in 4 hubs and 3 rims in the first 3,000 miles. One was a 40H boutique hub, no better.
They are no stronger than the pawls on my SA hubs. They are prone to muck up and they are NOT so easy to clean.
If you need crazy low gears, then that's your problem.
E bikes soon turn defaileurs to mush just as fast, if not worse than a Rohloff14, that now has an E special I heard.
It's a laughable MYTH that my Rohloff is less efficient than a LHT at 2/3 the loaded weight. Mine gets better every day. 19,300 miles with NO problem but the chains.
Rei did buy a Rohloff after, but never updated and quit vlogging.
Me and my bike were 290 lbs, 75% of his total. LOL
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 02-20-23 at 09:38 PM.
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Meanwhile in MTB the aforementioned Nicolai is trying out an enduro bike with the Supre derailleur, which is a much more significant departure from the norm. Lots of things in MTB flame out on their own merit in a few years but have influence down the line, so who knows? E-bike plus suspension has driven some manufacturers away from their trademark suspension designs because they have to put a motor where the pivot used to be.
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And a tip of the hat to those who try.
I thought the principals at Pinion got off on the wrong foot. They said in an interview, "Motorcycles have (frame-mounted) gearboxes - why don't bicycles?" Their starting question should have been, 'Everyone who has tried a bottom bracket gearbox for bicycles has failed in the marketplace so far. Let's figure out why and do better."
I thought the principals at Pinion got off on the wrong foot. They said in an interview, "Motorcycles have (frame-mounted) gearboxes - why don't bicycles?" Their starting question should have been, 'Everyone who has tried a bottom bracket gearbox for bicycles has failed in the marketplace so far. Let's figure out why and do better."
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#23
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Chainline constant, cogs slid back and forth, 1931:
Last edited by tcs; 02-21-23 at 08:19 AM.
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I saw one of those more recent with the chain ring sliding instead. 1970's maybe. Why was I looking? I had a different chain line idea, and was looking for prior art.
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#25
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One potential advantage of the Pinion, and probably the Roloff, is a symmetrical rear wheel which should be stronger. Not an issue for mere mortals, but strong/heavy/loaded riders in rough terain might see a gain.