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Steel bike failure. Is this manufacturing or something else?

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Steel bike failure. Is this manufacturing or something else?

Old 12-25-19, 09:29 AM
  #101  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I think we can agree that the tubes shouldn't have ruptured like they apparently did in the weld heat affected zone.

But, we still don't have a plausible explanation of the accident.
  1. Frame failed "Just riding along (JRA)", sending the rider to the ground.
  2. Crack developing before the crash, and cyclist decided he could ignore it.
  3. Previous Crash damage putting excess stress on the joint.
  4. Hard crash caused all failures, and the failures are a result of the crash, not a cause of the crash.
" Plausible" or "probable"?

#2 assumes he actually noticed it, btw.

I think the notion that we could possibly arrive at a definitive explanation of what happened by arguing in a thread about the paltry evidence we have is pretty silly.

I actually think this is just bad journalism letting the plaintiff's attorney to use the media for litigation strategy purposes. Why was there no challenge to the claim that video exists?
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Old 12-25-19, 10:27 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I actually think this is just bad journalism letting the plaintiff's attorney to use the media for litigation strategy purposes. Why was there no challenge to the claim that video exists?
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Well, it was Faux News....

It is quite possible that the company didn't choose to follow up. Never say something out of trial that one might wish to keep private.

I think a little more effort could have been made to verify the cyclist's route and speed. How doe one end up planting face-first into solid barrier, and blame it on the bike?

Also, can all the damage to the bike be accounted for by it simply falling apart?
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Old 12-25-19, 11:44 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Well, it was Faux News....

It is quite possible that the company didn't choose to follow up. Never say something out of trial that one might wish to keep private.

I think a little more effort could have been made to verify the cyclist's route and speed. How doe one end up planting face-first into solid barrier, and blame it on the bike?

Also, can all the damage to the bike be accounted for by it simply falling apart?

I'm of the opinion that none of us have any real idea what would happen if a frame basically disintegrated while the bike was in motion. There's simply too many variables to know what would be impacted by what and from what direction. We also have no idea what actual information exists vs. that released by the attorneys. All that's really been reported here is that there's a he said/the company said dispute with no actual journalistic investigation.

Pretty clear that the plaintiff went public to pressure the co. to settle. Don't know if it worked. Also, not clear if going public was a sign of strength or a ploy because they know the case is weak, and embarrassing the company is the only real leverage the plaintiff has.
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Old 12-26-19, 07:31 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Pretty clear that the plaintiff went public to pressure the co. to settle. Don't know if it worked. Also, not clear if going public was a sign of strength or a ploy because they know the case is weak, and embarrassing the company is the only real leverage the plaintiff has.
Yes, this is one obvious strategy. Settlements are an easy way out. The other reason for going public like this is to fish for similar incidents, which could trigger mandatory notification to the CPSC and perhaps even lead to lucrative class action.
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Old 12-26-19, 04:06 PM
  #105  
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In the picture on the lower right, it looks like the weld was just laying on top of the tube, and it just pulled out.
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Old 12-26-19, 04:18 PM
  #106  
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You say that when here on this bike forum and others, you read all the time about the instant failure of CF frames and forks? They are after all just plastic bikes. The true description is CF reinforced plastic resin. And the problem is as with all plastics they age very quickly and become brittle.
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Old 12-27-19, 06:18 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot
There is video of the event. I am assuming that it is not being released because it shows culpability for QBP.



Almost certainly this is not a failure due to front end impact.

I assume nothing. If the video is that clear, why wouldn't the plaintiff make it public? It could be because the plaintiff isn't crazy about the idea of having video of his own maiming go viral, but there's no way that the reason for keeping it unreleased is that it makes it clear that he has a good case.

Also keep in mind that the photographic evidence of the bike has been staged by the plaintiff's attorney. Things could look different from another angle.
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Old 12-31-19, 12:16 AM
  #108  
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From the pictures it still looks like there was no weld penetration. Even for good welders it is hard to tell.

OTOH when a frame with lugs is brazed, even a beginning frame builder can see if the bronze is being pulled into the frame and lugs. The big plus in lugs and brazing is the fact the temp is much lower than welding, and less heat damage is done to the tubes.

As I stated in an earlier post this goes back to the fact that it is easier faster and cheaper to have a robot weld up a frame, than have a person braze a lugged frame. But if the setting for the robot welder is off you will have what happened to the bike in question.

Last edited by rydabent; 12-31-19 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 12-31-19, 04:16 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
From the pictures it still looks like there was no weld penetration. Even for good welders it is hard to tell.
If you look at the HT end you can see that the tubes broke behind the welds, not at them as would be caused by poor penetration, so I don't think that was the problem here.

It's very hard to get poor penetration on tubing this thin but it is quite easy to tell how you did by looking inside the HT after the weld for just the right amount of bumpiness on the back side.

They look like good welds to me and my theory is still that the tubes are made of a defective alloy.
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Old 01-05-20, 03:32 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
That crease in the downtube makes me wonder if someone didn't run headfirst into a curb, but how clean those welds came apart makes me question the integrity of the bike's construction.
I too wonder about that crease, it does have the appearance of the rider hitting something first then the tubing welds failed, but regardless if he hit a curb first I would be surprised if he gets any judgement for his injuries but we do live in America! At the most he would get is maybe a new frame if it is determined that the welds were nearly nonexistent. I would have liked to had seen pictures of the front wheel and the fork to see if they were bent. Maybe if the top tube failed first it may have caused the down tube to first crease and then fail. I would say from looking at the bike there is very little welding and at some point that bike was going to fail, so it could be the bike failed from poor welding.
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Old 01-07-20, 08:38 AM
  #111  
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Just a reminder of what a typical (in this case alluminum) frame buckling looks like:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRAME-DAMAG....c100036.m2109



"Looks nearly new but was involved in a mishap."

-mr. bill
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Old 01-07-20, 02:37 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Just a reminder of what a typical (in this case alluminum) frame buckling looks like:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRAME-DAMAG....c100036.m2109



"Looks nearly new but was involved in a mishap."

-mr. bill

Hammer it out and a little bondo and it should be fine, amiright?
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Old 01-07-20, 03:46 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Just a reminder of what a typical (in this case alluminum) frame buckling looks like:




"Looks nearly new but was involved in a mishap."

-mr. bill
Nice to know that bicycles have crumple zones.

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Old 03-24-20, 09:50 AM
  #114  
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You say that in the face of all the countless reports of shattered plastic forks and frames? Yes I said plastic, because CF frames and forks are CF reinforced plastic resin.
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Old 03-24-20, 09:57 AM
  #115  
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Look closely at the top picture. Look at at the cable run, and you will see that the wheel is turned backward. Hard to tell if the fork is bent or not.
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Old 03-24-20, 10:00 AM
  #116  
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Doesn't the AL3 use a carbon fiber (plastic) fork?

What failed, besides the operator?
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Old 03-24-20, 10:02 AM
  #117  
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This accident also show that the statement that the steel used in to days bike can stand higher heat than the steel used in brazed frame bikes. Where the tube broke indicates heat weakened damage to the tube.
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Old 03-25-20, 02:54 AM
  #118  
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Hence my theory that these are defective tubes (the wrong alloy or a bad batch or something). The welds look good and it didn't break there, but just behind them in the HAZ. It's hard to see how you could achieve that sort of failure with bad welding.
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Old 03-30-20, 08:09 AM
  #119  
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The bottom line here is money. It is far cheaper to just filet weld bike tubes with robots rather than braze a frame with lugs. Just plain money grubbing greed.
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Old 03-30-20, 01:57 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
The bottom line here is money. It is far cheaper to just filet weld bike tubes with robots rather than braze a frame with lugs. Just plain money grubbing greed.
I don't think many bike frames are robot TIG welded. There are some factories in Taiwan I've heard of doing that but I believe most are welded by hand. Lots of robot MIG for low end steel bikes and also aluminium.

There are plenty of ways to screw up the brazing of a lugged frame and I don't think anyone would argue it's really better from an engineering or reliability standpoint. It was done historically before TIG became widespread and because at the high end we only had non-weldable alloys like 531 (which may have been a bit of a chicken/egg type scenario). It's still used on custom bikes for aesthetic reasons.
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Old 04-03-20, 12:38 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
How doe one end up planting face-first into solid barrier, and blame it on the bike?
I'm not sure that there's any evidence that he went head first (i.e. perpendicularly) into the fence. He says himself that his vertebrae were "twisted" as his head went back, and face-planting straight into the fence (or any hard object) would likely result in his nose being smooshed all over his face, rather than being sheared off - it was sliced off from one side. To me it sounds like he hit the fence at quite an acute angle, with the fence on his left, and moving left-to-right along the fence, hitting the fence with his face and his nose catching between two slats. The continued motion along the fence twisted his head to the left (which is what he indicated in the video, IIRC) while ripping off his nose from the right, so that it hung on at the left nostril.
Obviously video of the incident will be the kicker, but to me this is consistent wth him riding with the fence on his left, losing control and veering into the fence at speed
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Old 04-03-20, 02:16 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by MaxKatt
I guess steel isn’t always so real.
No, it's the builder who wasn't so real. This sort of thing has happened before, believe it or not it's more common with carbon fiber bikes! Not that happens every day in every place, but it's more common than any other material.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:52 AM
  #123  
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All of the well know bicycle books by trusted authors produced before about 1990 absolutely laughed at fillet welded bikes.

BTW for a builder of a lugged frame bike would have to be pretty inept to not notice that the brazing rod material was not taken fully into the lug. Either it was taken in or it just fell off, and he would know something was wrong.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:07 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by greatscott
No, it's the builder who wasn't so real. This sort of thing has happened before, believe it or not it's more common with carbon fiber bikes! Not that happens every day in every place, but it's more common than any other material.
I’m from Missouri, show me. Show me a head tube top tube down tube failure in carbon fiber. And show me another. And another. And another.

-mr. bill
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Old 04-10-20, 09:12 PM
  #125  
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I would just like to say that people shouldn't try to learn anything from this thread, lots of really bad information in here. Can't believe it's still going on.
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