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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 05-27-17, 04:46 PM
  #51  
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What is the proper etiquette when one is overtaken, but the overtaker does not accelerate away fast enough?

I was overtaken early during my race today. No big deal, i move over to the right (by 2 ft), the passing rider moves forward; all is good. Then for some reason he doesn't accelerate to move away and was in my drafting zone for quite awhile. I actually dropped wattage, hoping that he'd power away, but he was not far ahead of me for about a good mile. It took him 0.3 miles to cover the 2 seconds needed to over take me, but 0.6 miles to move 2 seconds ahead (which is slightly more than 25 meters during the race), where I actually reduced power after he passed me. Even when he was out of the draft zone, he still didn't fully ride away. His power file showed that he ran a positive split, with the 3 miles he needed to make up 30 seconds on me about 30W higher than his power after overtaking (this include the start, the power difference was 20W once he was at cruising speed). I was doing a negative split, so I was actually going less slowly after as the race went on. Before the passing, he was doing 29.6 mph while I did 27.7 mph. In the last four miles of the race (when he was more than 10 second ahead), he was doing 30.2 mph while I did 29.6 mph.

In contrast, when I was passed by someone else at another race, the passing rider sailed away so fast that he wasn't to be seen again. I actually upped my watts after being passed since I needed to pass another rider, but the rider who passed me maintained his 30.6 mph speed throughout and was consistently a good 2 mph faster.

My question is, what should I have done differently here (assuming if there's anything I could have done). Not many bother to look up the Strava Playback data, but one can notice an inflection point or sort when he passes me. And that looks incriminating even if I tried my best not to draft off of people...

Last edited by echappist; 05-27-17 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 05-27-17, 08:19 PM
  #52  
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I would have passed him back. There's no rule that says once overtaken, you have to relegate yourself. I have been in TTs where I have gone back and forth several times with riders. As long as you are maintaining your line outside of the draft and not sitting directly behind (doing a TTT) then officials are usually fine with that. More than a few TT folks use a rabbit then blow up.
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Old 03-08-18, 05:28 PM
  #53  
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20K Sunday on a fairly flat course, very slightly uphill out (+100 ft). Normally slight tailwind out. However it look like this weekend it could be out into a 10 to 15 mph headwind depending on when it picks up. Is this a case of go harder when it's hard (headwind)?
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Old 03-08-18, 09:26 PM
  #54  
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Yes. Headwind and uphill grades slow down the bike hence one loses time by being on that section of the course too long. The secret sauce is know how much extra energy to apply to the harder section and that may vary depending on what part of the course the hard section is located. I like to negative split races such that a harder section at the start is not to my liking.
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Old 03-09-18, 09:42 AM
  #55  
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I also would go out hard on that one. 10 mph wind on an uphill grade for me would make that split almost 50% longer than the downhill tailwind split. YMMV, this is where thinking about it in advance and knowing where you are in training now, what kind of effort you can hold and for how long, will really help.

So say for you it would be around 18-19 min going out, youíll be looking at 13-14 min coming back, maybe as little as 12 min if the wind is building and temps are warming (as they usually are).

Knowing those likely split times, Iíd figure out stuff like: if I went out at 106% for 18 min, could I manage 103% coming back? Etc. Then Iíd develop a game plan based on my assessment of how long I could do X effort after already doing Y effort based on where I am in training now, whether Iím coming into a period of mightiness or struggling, and knowing Iíll get a performance boost from it being race day.

When actually racing, this game plan is only one element of what Iíll tap into as things unfold. Sometimes I feel great and attempt to exceed the plan and I do. Sometimes Iím out there and realize my plan was optimistic or wrong and I make up a new one on the fly.

I have had some interesting conversations with very good TTers and have been amazed at how different peopleís approaches are. Some people barely think about it in advance and do fine, some people like me make more of a plan and then see how it goes. Half of what I like about TTing is testing what I thought would work that day to be fast, itís really interesting to me.
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Old 03-09-18, 08:00 PM
  #56  
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Appreciate the feedback. Fitness is still building. Where I think I'm way ahead of last year is in adaptation to position. Riding Tempo on my test loop in similar wind Tuesday, I surprisingly turned in the third fastest time I've recorded (w/o aero helmet)!

I'm going to take the opportunity to push out pretty hard. If I over cook it I can still have a decent return. Good opportunity to see where I'm at.
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Old 03-12-18, 03:21 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Yes. Headwind and uphill grades slow down the bike hence one loses time by being on that section of the course too long. The secret sauce is know how much extra energy to apply to the harder section and that may vary depending on what part of the course the hard section is located. I like to negative split races such that a harder section at the start is not to my liking.
Secret sauce... I've heard that before :-)

Like you, I don't like harder to begin with. I always go 'too harder'. Dag gum rookie is what I am
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Old 03-12-18, 08:48 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post

So say for you it would be around 18-19 min going out, you’ll be looking at 13-14 min coming back...

.
Pretty close, 17:40 out (with a terrible turn) & 14:00 back. Not as much wind as expected but I left a lot of time out there. One positive, I was very comfortable Aero. So the decision to do all of my interval work on the TT Bike this winter helped.

I think I need to push a little more gear training, and at times ignore the power meter. I'm not playing the terrain and giving away momentum on a couple of little rollers. I'm sure @Doge will have some fun with that statement.
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Old 03-12-18, 09:34 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Pretty close, 17:40 out (with a terrible turn) & 14:00 back. Not as much wind as expected but I left a lot of time out there. One positive, I was very comfortable Aero. So the decision to do all of my interval work on the TT Bike this winter helped.

I think I need to push a little more gear training, and at times ignore the power meter. I'm not playing the terrain and giving away momentum on a couple of little rollers. I'm sure @Doge will have some fun with that statement.


So what did you wind up doing on outbound vs return legs, expressed as a %FTP? Exclude the poor turn if you want, or include it. I'm just really curious to hear how other people divvy these things up.


I'm not sure if you already do your TT interval work on the road, but I do almost all of mine on the road. My idea is that I want to become as good as I can be at dealing with terrain undulations and staying on a number. Who knows if I'm doing that right but its way easier for me to manage momentum now than when I first started.


As far as the power meter goes, to me its not about learning to ignore the power meter so much as not relying on it to lead you- ie don't chase a number. Its just one input you assess during the effort, the others being HR, resp rate/quality, and perceived exertion/how the legs feel. I try to loop through these brain inputs continuously. If any one of them make no sense- my HR is high, say, but everything else is fine- I don't ignore it so much as place less focus on its importance relative to other inputs.


Then of course in your post-race assessment, seeing those power numbers and relating them to your split times and environmental conditions, HR data and your recollections of RPE- very important part of the learning curve.


Keeping in mind that I'm the person who came in 4th out of 4 in my TT this past weekend. Although I did have a 3 time professional world champion in my race field. So that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 03-13-18, 06:34 AM
  #60  
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Looked at that yesterday and was not surprised to see 99% out, 93% back. At the time I felt like I was riding not racing if that makes sense. I needed to be more aggressive with the tail wind. Thinking about this on my off day, going to some over/under intervals. I'm riding too controlled.

Due to time constraints all of my interval work has been indoors. The week prior to this race I had two tempo rides on my TT bike outside. The time change will help that I hope.
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Old 03-14-18, 01:49 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Looked at that yesterday and was not surprised to see 99% out, 93% back. At the time I felt like I was riding not racing if that makes sense. I needed to be more aggressive with the tail wind. Thinking about this on my off day, going to some over/under intervals. I'm riding too controlled.

Due to time constraints all of my interval work has been indoors. The week prior to this race I had two tempo rides on my TT bike outside. The time change will help that I hope.
Tailwind and downhill sections, especially when they are "max speed", can often make a big difference in elapsed time. I've run as big as a 56 front ring on some courses; Gila in particular was a downhill tailwind where I hit 56 mph and change at around 280w. If you figure the fastest coasting speed would have been low 50's or even high 40's, that's going to translate into a lot of time.

Learning how to keep pushing on these sections is a good tool to develop.
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Old 03-15-18, 06:51 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Tailwind and downhill sections, especially when they are "max speed", can often make a big difference in elapsed time. I've run as big as a 56 front ring on some courses; Gila in particular was a downhill tailwind where I hit 56 mph and change at around 280w. If you figure the fastest coasting speed would have been low 50's or even high 40's, that's going to translate into a lot of time.

Learning how to keep pushing on these sections is a good tool to develop.
Good to see you back on the keyboard! Yea, I still had a gear or two to give. I'll chalk some of that up to lack of time outside (work has been insane). I have spent a majority of my trainer time on the TT bike but that was only my 3rd ride outside on it since Nov. More daylight now will be a big help.

I think the best solution would be to race more, there just isn't a whole lot around (I'm surprised how few TT's are run in SA or Austin). Might add some weekend race efforts into my training. I've got a decent loop & an Out/Back both around 6mi. That and a longer Tempo ride would be a good day.
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Old 03-15-18, 07:11 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
I think the best solution would be to race more, there just isn't a whole lot around (I'm surprised how few TT's are run in SA or Austin). Might add some weekend race efforts into my training. I've got a decent loop & an Out/Back both around 6mi. That and a longer Tempo ride would be a good day.
If you don't mind a bit of a drive:

Welcome to TBC Velo

There were a couple summer of weeknight series in Austin and in SA, but I've been out of touch with those for a while.
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Old 03-16-18, 10:04 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
There were a couple summer of weeknight series in Austin and in SA, but I've been out of touch with those for a while.
SAT/SoCent TX Area: Castroville Time Trial Series (April Time Trial)

https://www.bikereg.com/37738

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Old 03-16-18, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
SAT/SoCent TX Area: Castroville Time Trial Series (April Time Trial)

https://www.bikereg.com/37738

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Yep, I ride that (1st, 50+ 20K in March ). Only 4 scheduled this year. State TT makes it 5.
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Old 03-16-18, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Yep, I ride that (1st, 50+ 20K in March ). Only 4 scheduled this year. State TT makes it 5.
Thought so, good effort you put in last week before it got Stupid Windy in the afternoon.
I may wander over and spectate at the April TT while still trying to recover from a knee-sprain.

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Old 03-21-18, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Thought so, good effort you put in last week before it got Stupid Windy in the afternoon.
I may wander over and spectate at the April TT while still trying to recover from a knee-sprain.

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Recovery...what's that?
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Old 05-21-18, 11:10 AM
  #68  
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Very mediocre State TT, time to go to work on a few things. I'm much fitter but not faster. My impression over the last month or so trying to ramp us is that my current position is limiting. Some days I'm OK and others I just can not sustain a decent power output. YTD my best 20m TT position power is 82% of my Road best.

Going to visit with a local fitter sometime the next week or two for a start. I think that I'm looking for a setup with less drop & narrower. I have a good test loop to play on, will see what the stop watch says.
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Old 05-21-18, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Very mediocre State TT, time to go to work on a few things. I'm much fitter but not faster. My impression over the last month or so trying to ramp us is that my current position is limiting. Some days I'm OK and others I just can not sustain a decent power output. YTD my best 20m TT position power is 82% of my Road best.

Going to visit with a local fitter sometime the next week or two for a start. I think that I'm looking for a setup with less drop & narrower. I have a good test loop to play on, will see what the stop watch says.
Sorry about your race but good luck with the fit. The TT stuff is interesting to play around with, trying to optimize one aspect so that it does not compromise another. Its a process and embracing the process, I think, makes it much more engaging and interesting. If where you are now is part of the process to get the results you want, then giving up a little but now is worth it IMO. Enjoy.
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Old 05-22-18, 08:45 AM
  #70  
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@Heathpack, speaking of fitting...your video was impressive. That was the best I've seen you on the bike, granted I've only seen you on it a few times. However, this time it was notable in how relaxed, aero, and strong you looked.
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Old 05-22-18, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
@Heathpack, speaking of fitting...your video was impressive. That was the best I've seen you on the bike, granted I've only seen you on it a few times. However, this time it was notable in how relaxed, aero, and strong you looked.
Thanks @sarals. I'm not even sure yet that the position is faster- I'm still down on power in it and fatigue more quickly. But it sure looks more aero so I'm sticking with it for the time being. It takes time I think to figure out if a position is worth it.

https://youtu.be/yx-FpkymTHg


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Old 05-22-18, 12:39 PM
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Ps I can't figure out how to embed video in the new forum. Tried to do the YouTube link but it doesn't seem a hyperlink was created.
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Old 05-22-18, 10:56 PM
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@Heathpack, I'm surprised you're seeing those issues. Seeing, in your case, is deceiving! You sure look relaxed and strong.

I don't know how to do YouTube, either...
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Old 08-19-18, 01:48 PM
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Anybody else played with 1 or 2 tooth chainring changes? I just went from 54 to 56 in front which ends up being about a half tooth in the back. First ride out it seems like on flat ground the gearing is better for me.
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