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Racing at altitude

Old 08-28-18, 12:36 PM
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Racing at altitude

I earned a slot to the national senior games in Santa Fe next year, and I'm looking forward to it. I'm not sure, however, how to train for racing at 7K' altitude when I live at 260' above sea level, and most of my riding and racing through the year is well under 2K' altitude. Since I don't have the resources or time to winter in the mountains, are there specific things I should work on over the winter to increase my ability to function a mile+ higher than where I spend most of my time?

FWIW, the races will be relatively short circuit races - 20K and 40K on 8 or 9K loop with not a lot of climbing.

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Old 08-28-18, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
I earned a slot to the national senior games in Santa Fe next year, and I'm looking forward to it. I'm not sure, however, how to train for racing at 7K' altitude when I live at 260' above sea level, and most of my riding and racing through the year is well under 2K' altitude. Since I don't have the resources or time to winter in the mountains, are there specific things I should work on over the winter to increase my ability to function a mile+ higher than where I spend most of my time?

FWIW, the races will be relatively short circuit races - 20K and 40K on 8 or 9K loop with not a lot of climbing.

BB
I'm also doing the National Senior Games next year. They're in Albuquerque, which is at 5000-5500 ft. Way better for us lower altitude folks.

Basically, each of us if affected by altitude to a different degree and there's limits to how much you can do about it if altitude hits you hard. If you can spend a long time (1-2 months) at altitude before your event, that's best. Most of us can't do that though and if you can't, going as early as you can may help. The worst day for most people though is the second day at altitude, so if your race is on say Monday, you really don't want to arrive Sat. Even arriving Sunday evening is supposedly better than trying to race on day 2. However: sometimes you just do what you need to do because of life constraints.

Definitely for me it helps to get to altitude and do some race efforts there ahead of time. That way I have a better idea what RPE feels like at that altitude, how much I'll be down on power, what my HR is going to do. It helps me more understand how I'm feeling when racing and what it means.

The absolute ideal would be to get to the venue itself and ride race efforts on the course. Obviously that might be out of the question. Second best is to get to similar altitude as frequently as you can and see how it feels. I live at 1500ish ft but can get to 5000 ft within a 35 min drive and 8000 ft within 50 min. When I'm getting ready for a race at altitude, I try to get to a similar altitude as frequently as I can. If I can't, I already know from doing it previously approximately what my power is going to do, so now I can wing it. I am personally pretty affected by altitude as low as 5000 ft and even slightly affected at 3000 ft.

Others may have some specific training ideas but honestly I work with @Racer Ex and I'm pretty sure his take is "it is what it is" as far as altitude training. Its more about knowledge than it is about really changing your body's physiologic responses to altitude.
@Hermes also has looked into this and will probably have something useful to say,
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Old 08-28-18, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
I'm also doing the National Senior Games next year. They're in Albuquerque, which is at 5000-5500 ft. Way better for us lower altitude folks.
I'll look for you!

The Time Trials are in Albequerque, but the RR is in Santa Fe (Cycling).
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Old 08-28-18, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
I'll look for you!

The Time Trials are in Albequerque, but the RR is in Santa Fe (Cycling).
I'm only doing the TTs.

7000 ft would be really tough for me personally. I'd have go TTing at 7000 ft to know but it wouldn't surprise me to figure out I might be 20% down on power at that altitude. The events being short might mitigate that somewhat. It would be interesting to see actually.
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Old 08-28-18, 03:59 PM
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Altitude capacity is an individualized response. If you can't train at altitude there are devices like AltoLab and altitude tents that provide some of the same training responses. Otherwise the rule of thumb is get there as close to your race as possible, and expect to really suffer on day three.

From a training perspective you'd want to push on aerobic recovery efforts. Go deep into 02 debt, then try to hang on at the biggest effort you can manage while still having the HR come down. Avoid going into the red if at all possible at altitude, it can take exponentially longer to recover for the same output at sea level. Don't bother looking at your power meter for help, everyone loses X percent power at Y altitude. PE is your friend.

I qualified for both the RR and TT's, and plan on going. See you there!
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Old 08-28-18, 10:49 PM
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Rumor has that track nats will be at Colorado Springs next year. It must be the Year of the Elevation?
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Old 08-29-18, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
Rumor has that track nats will be at Colorado Springs next year. It must be the Year of the Elevation?
This is one of those things that I don't fully get- lots of national level races are at altitude. People are affected differently by altitude, its not something you can train away. So it seems like a course gets picked that favors some athletes over others whereas I assume you'd want an event like Nationals to be testing race skills/intelligence, fitness, training, prep. Rather than something random and out of an athlete's hands like the effect of altitude.

For the track, I get it that there's limited velodromes with a roof, so it makes more sense. But for racing on the road, to me it would make sense to choose venues with good courses for the widest variety of racers. Make it a real contest.
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Old 08-29-18, 02:57 PM
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I took a USAC course on altitude training a few years ago. I wanted to get the "facts" on what works and what does not. Like everything in sports, results are an individual response. Some athletes get better with altitude training, some stay the same and some get worse. The key metric for sea level athletes going to altitude is the effect is the worse on the 3rd day. The normalized general response curve is that athletes start to respond on day 7. It takes 21 days for acclimation.

Athletes at altitude lose VO2 throughput and muscle mass versus sea level. Therefore, the concept of sleep high and train low is the optimal way assuming a generalized response. If one trains hard a sea level, VO2 throughput and strength are maintained while spending most of ones time at altitude invokes a systemic response increasing the ability to transport and consume O2 at altitude.

In general, tents do not work because one does not spend enough time in it. 14 hours plus is the bogey each day not just sleeping. But maybe sleeping 8 hours in a tent provides some level of acclimation.

And assuming altitude acclimation and training works, there is a protocol for when to do it and there are specific spots globally that are considered perfect for getting results. So doing an actual attitude session prepping for an event is hard to do. Everything that is offered that is not actual time in the mountains for a longer period of time will have very mixed results...if any.
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Old 08-29-18, 03:02 PM
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I have never understood the rational behind scheduling events at altitude - especially above 6000 feet. I assume venue selection for USAC it is always about money / relationships / politics / geography and which venue or velodrome is willing to take the risk of hosting an event and losing money. Maybe some of the venues have sponsors that put up financing and could care less if the race "lost" money or that their sponsorship contribution had a payback.

For the Senior Games (not sanctioned by USAC), whose organizers are even more clueless than USAC, (if that is possible), it is about cluelessness.

I would echo what R'Ex said...do not go into the red. There is not enough air to recover.

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by Hermes; 08-30-18 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 08-29-18, 10:41 PM
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I don't understand the rational of championships at altitude, either. For the track, I do understand holding national championships at different venues each year, it spreads the wealth. However. I think holding a national championship at an outdoor track in a known wet climate is not great policy. I know, I know. We have one "permanent" indoor velodrome in this country, VSC. We have two "temporary" covered velodromes, Lexus in Detroit and the USAC track in Colorado. Detroit is a 166, Colorado is in the stratosphere. This brings up the discussion of "needing" more permanent indoor tracks in this country, which is a can of worms. As for USAC and Senior Games championships, it's the same thing. Rain and or elevation. Is there a perfect solution? Zwift.
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Old 08-30-18, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
I don't understand the rational of championships at altitude, either. For the track, I do understand holding national championships at different venues each year, it spreads the wealth. However. I think holding a national championship at an outdoor track in a known wet climate is not great policy. I know, I know. We have one "permanent" indoor velodrome in this country, VSC. We have two "temporary" covered velodromes, Lexus in Detroit and the USAC track in Colorado. Detroit is a 166, Colorado is in the stratosphere. This brings up the discussion of "needing" more permanent indoor tracks in this country, which is a can of worms. As for USAC and Senior Games championships, it's the same thing. Rain and or elevation. Is there a perfect solution? Zwift.
The perfect solution: SoCal!

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Old 08-30-18, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I have never understood the rational behind scheduling events at altitude - especially above 6000 feet. I assume venue selection for USAC it is always about money / relationships / politics / geography and which venue or velodrome is willing to take the risk of hosting an event and losing money. Maybe some of the venues have sponsors that put up financing and could care less if the race "lost" money or that their sponsorship contribution had a payback.

For the Senior Games (not sanctioned by USAC), whose organizers are even more clueless than USAC, (if that is possible), it is about cluelessness.

I would echo what R'Ex said...do not go into the red. There is not enough air to recover.

Edited for clarity.
I'm thrilled at the prospect of spending several days in Santa Fe, but why you'd put the Senior games at altitude is a mystery to me. Wish I'd know about it two years ago when it was in Alabama.

I'll certainly try to avoid going in the red. Would I benefit more from lots of Tabatas and short intervals focused on recovery this winter, or from longer intervals and functioning on the rivet for longer periods?

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Old 08-30-18, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
I'm thrilled at the prospect of spending several days in Santa Fe, but why you'd put the Senior games at altitude is a mystery to me. Wish I'd know about it two years ago when it was in Alabama.

I'll certainly try to avoid going in the red. Would I benefit more from lots of Tabatas and short intervals focused on recovery this winter, or from longer intervals and functioning on the rivet for longer periods?

BB
I am not a coach and have zero credentials vis a vis physiology. I would suggest doing typical training that is normal for the events you plan on racing. Without testing, it is unclear whether a tabata style interval will do any good for altitude. When you go to altitude, there is a change in pressure as well as less O2. So you may just feel bad i.e. headache, nausea and sleeplessness. Hence, those symptoms kick in after day one and peak in day three if you are going to get them and diminish over time.
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Old 08-30-18, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
I'm thrilled at the prospect of spending several days in Santa Fe, but why you'd put the Senior games at altitude is a mystery to me. Wish I'd know about it two years ago when it was in Alabama.

I'll certainly try to avoid going in the red. Would I benefit more from lots of Tabatas and short intervals focused on recovery this winter, or from longer intervals and functioning on the rivet for longer periods?

BB
Can you get to altitude at any point to do some hard efforts? One advantage you could have over other people is just being knowledgeable about how you will feel and how your body responds. Some of your opponents will not be prepared for the idea that there is a difference racing at altitude and will screw things up for themselves. Just not screwing it up could be a significant advantage, if you can get to altitude and learn about yourself.
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Old 08-31-18, 07:01 AM
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There will always be an advantage to someone no matter the location or the course. As long as the venue and course profile varies every year then it goes some way to balance it out.

As an example of an unfair advantage, the Austrailian Nationals Road Championships have been held at the same venue and course for years - with its multiple laps over the same climb it always suits the same type of riders...
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Old 08-31-18, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
There will always be an advantage to someone no matter the location or the course. As long as the venue and course profile varies every year then it goes some way to balance it out.

As an example of an unfair advantage, the Austrailian Nationals Road Championships have been held at the same venue and course for years - with its multiple laps over the same climb it always suits the same type of riders...
Yes of course this is true. But when it’s something like climbing vs flat course at least there’s things you can do to improve- lose weight, climb a bunch, etc. When it’s something out of your control, like the effect of altitude, to me it just doesn’t make sense to put the race you’d like people to see as the big goal event of the year at altitude. Particularly for masters or senior racers, it’s not like older folks have 15 years of steady state physiology ahead of them such that a wasted year is just a small percentage of our remaining race “careers”. Any one of us might be in our last year of racing right now. IMO, it matters. Obviously there are other considerations, but I think it’s one of those self-defeating things cycling organizations do. Rather than try to attract racers by giving us a really great and appropriate challenge so that we all buy in and build our cycling lives around their races, they come up with a crappy or dangerous course, in a place where you’d reasonably expect the climate/weather to be poor or put it at an altitude that some percentage of people aren’t going to bother with. So you wind up wondering why you are working so hard at this racing stuff when instead you might be completely captivated by the challenge. Enthusiasm is infectious and IMO could be cultivated to a much greater degree. Vs the comment from the promoter at our state championship TT last year when a racer politely brought up a legit frustration with the registration process: “you should be grateful this race is even happening”.
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Old 09-07-18, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
I don't understand the rational of championships at altitude, either. For the track, I do understand holding national championships at different venues each year, it spreads the wealth. However. I think holding a national championship at an outdoor track in a known wet climate is not great policy. I know, I know. We have one "permanent" indoor velodrome in this country, VSC. We have two "temporary" covered velodromes, Lexus in Detroit and the USAC track in Colorado. Detroit is a 166, Colorado is in the stratosphere. This brings up the discussion of "needing" more permanent indoor tracks in this country, which is a can of worms. As for USAC and Senior Games championships, it's the same thing. Rain and or elevation. Is there a perfect solution? Zwift.
I am pretty sure that it is 100% about who is willing to be the promoter. For USAC nationals none of the entry fee money goes to the promoters, it all goes to USAC. USAC provides all the timing and officials, etc. but there are costs beyond that and the promoter needs to find an income source to cover that. Just to break even. I know that when they held nationals at Hellyer in 2008 there was a lot of disagreement about whether or not "we" should have bid on it. (Royal we as I wasn't part of any of those discussions, though I was thrilled to race nationals without having to leave home.)

I know that for instance elite road nationals were supposed to be in Truckee for two years in a row but they passed on the second year as they couldn't get a funding source to cover the costs. I've also heard that one of the reasons master's track worlds didn't go to the elite distances for pursuit and "kilo" this year is because the promoter was worried about losing income with less racers and it was already tough for him to cover his costs. Master's nationals were supposed to be in Winston-Salem for two years also, but the second year got cancelled. A lot o136811f people on the east coast complained that masters nationals were in Bend three years in a row, but again, who bid against it??? Probably nobody. Or if they did, Bend had a better package.

Back in the '80s when I was trying to race at the national level on the road I used to joke that the NRC stage race calendar was the "Tour of America's Ski Area's". Mammoth, Casper, WY, etc. In those cases it probably came down to money again. Winter resorts were able to generate some summer income for the town by bringing a few hundred racers and supporters/friends with hotel, restaurant, etc. money.

Back to the original question, I understand that there is some research that indicates that spending time in a hot sauna gives some of the same benefits of altitude training or sleeping in a tent. There are a bunch of articles on the subject here: https://www.google.com/search?q=saun...ptations&cad=h

I've always been a "show up and go" kind of guy. That has always worked out pretty well for me. I'm sure I'd go faster if I went to altitude for a month or two, but I like all of you live in the real world and don't have that luxury so I just ignore it and do what I can.

I would recommend if possible that you go to altitude beforehand and either race or make race type efforts so you can feel what it does to you. If you live in Florida that is hard, but if you're in California, the Sierras aren't that far away. Also, read and digest what Racer-X said as he is right on the money.

For steady state types of events the chart on this Joe Friel article is helpful and from my experience pretty accurate.
Joe Friel - Altitude and Aerobic Performance

An interesting bit of data is that as you get up to REALLY high altitudes, 12k+ the difference between being acclimated and not narrows quite a bit. So, for say Pikes Peak or Mt. Evans a sea level person is probably slightly better off against the Colorado guys then they would be racing in Denver or Colorado Springs, or even Aspen, etc.

One other bit of information is that some people react well at altitude and others don't. In fact when I was getting ready to race Pikes Peak a few years ago I asked one of my Colorado friends if he was doing it and he told me "No, I don't do so well at high altitude." So even the altitude people are affect in different ways. I've always reacted well and I put that down to having lived in Truckee from about 1976 through 1983 or so. Not that I was still acclimated in later years, but I felt that maybe my body just didn't "freak out" about the sensations of racing at altitude. My wife on the other hand just doesn't feel that good in general at altitude, let alone racing. I've since "learned" (been told, I haven't tracked it down myself) that there is a genetic component to this. I think perhaps I've got this gene in some form as I felt fine racing up Pikes Peak and riding up Evans the following day while other guys I know felt terrible. One friend had to stop for a bit at Pikes Peak because he felt bad and another told of racing up Mt. Evans as being like an out of body experience. (Both were sea level guys like me.) My power at altitude tracked the Friel chart and I went slower as you'd expect, but I didn't feel in distress.

One final bit of advice. Don't be stupid. Seriously. Bike racers tend to not be the smartest people in the world when they race. Just because one guys hits it super hard early in the race or on that short hill doesn't mean that you need to. Sure, you need to not get dropped, but you don't need to follow right on the wheel. Temper your effort. Drift from the front of the pack to the back so you don't have to dig so deep. You will find that lots of people make super hard efforts early on at altitude and pay for them dearly later on. Don't let them take you with them if you can avoid it.

BTW, for non-mass start events on the track there is really nothing but upside from the altitude. You will go much faster at altitude even without being acclimated. (Gear accordingly...) Look at the 4:07 that Ashton Lambie did in Aguascalientes for the 4km IP last week. That was a PR by close to 10 seconds I believe. I'm sure some of that was his higher level of fitness, but most was altitude. My 2km PR in Aguasclientes is about 5 seconds faster than I went in LA. Colorado Springs will be similar.
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