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An e-bike is going to happen eventually

Old 07-14-19, 06:24 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Sheesh Mom.., You're on a bicycle-lovers-site trying to tell us to MOTORIZE our bikes so we can experience joy. I think you're very misguided. I'm 66, a grandpa, and truly do love the simplicity and FEELING of riding a bike like I did as kid. Not racing! No motors! No drugs! Not fantasizing that I'm stronger than I am. Just enjoying the ride.
So tell us...when the day comes (and it will) that you can't ride anymore, or ride where you want or as much as you want, will you just give up? Will you let go something that has been an important part of your life just because as humans we fall apart as we age? Maybe your joints and parts will be fine until you're 80 or 85, one of the lucky ones, but eventually your body will fail you. I see absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to allow you to continue an avocation you love. It can enrich your life. Or, you can stay narrow-minded and quit things as your body quits.
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Old 07-14-19, 07:07 PM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Sheesh Mom.., You're on a bicycle-lovers-site trying to tell us to MOTORIZE our bikes so we can experience joy. I think you're very misguided. I'm 66, a grandpa, and truly do love the simplicity and FEELING of riding a bike like I did as kid. Not racing! No motors! No drugs! Not fantasizing that I'm stronger than I am. Just enjoying the ride.
Well, my oh my. We do have a lot in common! I'm 66, a grandma, and truly do love the simplicity and feeling of riding a bike just like I did as a kid. No racing (not interested except I do love to watch the TDF) No drugs (I come from a long lived line of ancestors that were disease free, as am I). Smart enough not to fantasize that I'm still as strong as I was 20 years ago when I took up the sport of Endurance riding my Arabian - 15 years of that sport intermingled with 40 years of foxhunting during the winter. So now I rest on those laurels and simply pleasure ride my horses.

Anyway, back to how we are alike: I, too, am now just enjoying the ride (in both saddles).

Wow. Pretty amazing, huh? So much alike. Only diff is one of my 5 bikes has an electric assist. I love that particular bike because when I ride it I feel like I have an active partner in my ride, one that is willing to help me when I ask for help. Nice feeling for this active bike-loving 66 year old grandmother.

Now, I dare say we also both use reading glasses (goes with the age) so I would gently suggest you find yours and then carefully reread what I posted. What you will discover is not an attempt to TELL someone what to do to "experience joy", but instead to TELL this audience that all of us are free to discover how we want our bikes to continue to be part of our lives as we get older. And if an ebike fits that bill (like the OP in post #1 implied would be in his future soon enough), then okey dokey. If not (like many on this forum who still espouse the glories of DIY on analog bikes, and goodie for them.) then okey dokey. To each their own. No "telling" ANYONE they must motorized their bike. Just a plead to understand there is no need to hate someone who choses one type of bike over another.

PS - Big pat on the back to you for still being out there enjoying your bikes, hopefully with your grandkids.

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Old 07-14-19, 07:20 PM
  #228  
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Part of the problem I think is that people assume if you have an ebike (or add a motor as I did) you ride motorized all the time. That's not true. I rode 12.4 miles today, only 2 miles with the motor turned on at all. But that two mile climb with the motor allowed me to take a route I otherwise would not have considered due to my knee deterioration. And that was a short ride for me. I typically ride 20 miles, with maybe 1 or 2 miles of assist.
They also assume that people with ebikes ride them at maximum power all the time. That's not true, either. I see elderly couples on ebikes on our local pathways pootling along at 12mph, sometimes even slower. For them, it's not about the speed, they're chatting with friends riding along and enjoying the views. But the little bit of assist means they have the breath to chat, instead of using everything to ride, and they are motivated to ride longer. The fear of the overpowered crazy ebiker is just that - a fear, mostly unrealized. As a % of people using e-bikes, it's miniscule. Just spend some time watching or riding along urban pathways.
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Old 07-14-19, 07:56 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
So tell us...when the day comes (and it will) that you can't ride anymore, or ride where you want or as much as you want, will you just give up? Will you let go something that has been an important part of your life just because as humans we fall apart as we age? Maybe your joints and parts will be fine until you're 80 or 85, one of the lucky ones, but eventually your body will fail you. I see absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to allow you to continue an avocation you love. It can enrich your life. Or, you can stay narrow-minded and quit things as your body quits.
If my legs don't work AND I can't ride with the super-low gears I might buy a MOTORBIKE and ride it on the roads and byways that are for MOTORIZED vehicles. I will not PRETEND that my MOTORBIKE is a bicycle. I do totally understand that aging brings limitations and will readily accept the facts of nature.

I'm sorry you don't understand where I coming from.
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Old 07-14-19, 08:25 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
If my legs don't work AND I can't ride with the super-low gears I might buy a MOTORBIKE and ride it on the roads and byways that are for MOTORIZED vehicles. I will not PRETEND that my MOTORBIKE is a bicycle. I do totally understand that aging brings limitations and will readily accept the facts of nature.

I'm sorry you don't understand where I coming from.
A motorbike is not a bicycle - they don't have pedals and cannot be combined with human effort to propel them.

No I don't understand where you are coming from because I see no need to give up riding and going places I enjoy when technology is available to assist me. A push mower and an electric mower and a gas mower are all mowers. They all do the same thing, require some human input, but require varying physical effort to propel them.

I'm happy to think my life will continue to be filled with enjoyable rides where I get some exercise and have fun.
Be safe on your motorbike.

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Old 07-14-19, 08:35 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Part of the problem I think is that people assume if you have an ebike (or add a motor as I did) you ride motorized all the time. That's not true. I rode 12.4 miles today, only 2 miles with the motor turned on at all. But that two mile climb with the motor allowed me to take a route I otherwise would not have considered due to my knee deterioration. And that was a short ride for me. I typically ride 20 miles, with maybe 1 or 2 miles of assist.
They also assume that people with ebikes ride them at maximum power all the time. That's not true, either. I see elderly couples on ebikes on our local pathways pootling along at 12mph, sometimes even slower. For them, it's not about the speed, they're chatting with friends riding along and enjoying the views. But the little bit of assist means they have the breath to chat, instead of using everything to ride, and they are motivated to ride longer. The fear of the overpowered crazy ebiker is just that - a fear, mostly unrealized. As a % of people using e-bikes, it's miniscule. Just spend some time watching or riding along urban pathways.
Two years ago I was a commuter in Washington DC and saw first hand what the eBike has wrought. Commuters rushing to work down the bike path at high speed. Teenagers were another group that stood out as eBike fans with little regard as to speed and safety of others. I'll admit that numbers are small as compared to REAL cyclists, but they increased during the year that I commuted.

Look at this video and pretty much any eBike site and you'll get what is transpiring. It atrocious that these motor-vehicles are labeled as bicycles.


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Old 07-14-19, 09:36 PM
  #232  
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I fail to see what you're talking about - I was expecting, from your comments to see horrific accidents killing and maiming pedestrians on bikeways. It's a discussion of the mechanics of building a decent electric bike. BFD. Cars have the capacity to go 120 mph on neighborhood streets but we don't ban cars because of potential. We post reasonable limits and provide enforcement. If commuters are going faster than the legal speed limit on bike paths, then ticket them. Same with teenagers. If cyclists (of any kind) don't stop at red lights, then ticket them. The answer is to have appropriate laws on the books and then enforce them. A man was killed in SF by an unmotorized cyclist blasting through a crosswalk trying to set a Strava record. Should we ban Strava and all bicycles? His unmotored bike was going nearly 30mph. If you don't like the behavior of some people on e-bikes, then the answer is to create deterrents to that behavior, not ban a device that many people use appropriately.
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Old 07-15-19, 03:56 PM
  #233  
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Things can change. Like no steel bikes being raced in the TDF. A move to ban all mountain bikes on some hiking trails or at least segregating hiking trails. And even Monmouth Mountain allowing E bikes as a first.

https://theloamwolf.com/2018/04/18/u...allow-e-bikes/
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Old 07-15-19, 05:09 PM
  #234  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Things can change. Like no steel bikes being raced in the TDF. A move to ban all mountain bikes on some hiking trails or at least segregating hiking trails. And even Monmouth Mountain allowing E bikes as a first.

https://theloamwolf.com/2018/04/18/u...allow-e-bikes/
You mean Mammoth Mountain? That's lift served terrain and with all that goes on there with trail maintenance and the like, it's pretty ripped up.

I'm there often, and got to thinking a few weeks ago that the policy is kinda strange ... time will tell if they have issues with it. To wit:

The mountain biking on Mammoth is lift served ... pretty much all downhill. For anyone with a pass (and you need a pass to ride there) there is little need for an e-bike ... it's pretty much all downhill. So I'm not sure what permitting e-bikes really adds to the equation.

Because they are human powered, there is a certain amount of self-regulation when it comes to bicycles. In the case of Mammoth Mountain, damn few people are going to hop on their MTB and ride UP the hill again. That means that they can control who is on the mountain by simply controlling who gets a ride back uphill on the bus to the Main Lodge or who gets on the gondolas. It's much like skiing. You can only ski with a pass, but they really only control it at the entrances to the lifts, because no one is going to herringbone or side step up the hill to ski.

An e-bike means that people without tickets need only power up to the Main Lodge to access all the downhill accessible trails from there. It's possible without an ebike of course ... you could simply ride up. Or you could have someone shuttle you up in a car. But that is something that few, if any, would do.

Gonna be interesting.
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Old 07-15-19, 07:43 PM
  #235  
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It it is just a conversation about change not an attack on important issues of the day. E bikes will or won’t take the lions share of the cycling world and only time will tell. Not my circus and not my monkey. But I will say most of the big real bicycle manufacturers seem interested enough to be offering a line of E bikes for Some reason. Maybe Trek and Specialized are lazy too?

It it is just that cycling still hasn’t reached the same percentage of adult ownership since 1973-75. commuters in the US are still at about 1 percent nationally and something has to change or the segment will die on the vine. I M H O.

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Old 07-15-19, 09:54 PM
  #236  
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Ok, enough with the insults. You can keep arguing if you like but no more personal insults.

Thanks

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Old 07-16-19, 09:38 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by fuzzy chainring View Post
An even more important distinction is that this exception is for the leased land on which Mammoth operates. This exception to the motor vehicle restrictions only applies within the boundaries of the resort.

Example: as soon as folks cross 203 to ride Mountain View et al their electric motor bicycles are banned.
Yep.

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would want an ebike on lift served terrain anyway. It sounds like selling ice cubes to Eskimos to me.
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Old 07-16-19, 10:11 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Fortunately we have some government officials looking out for the environment and the public good

OK, let us take it up a notch.
Notice this says "Trail Management"
Ebikes are not allowed on trails.... even a lot of push bikes are not allowed on USFS trails.
Forest service roads and fire roads are not trails.
When I ride class one ebike in National Forest on roads... closed off to public vehicles, USFS and County personnel wave to me.
Such as roads to service repeater and broadcast towers.
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Old 07-16-19, 11:04 AM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
OK, let us take it up a notch.
Notice this says "Trail Management"
Ebikes are not allowed on trails.... even a lot of push bikes are not allowed on USFS trails.
Forest service roads and fire roads are not trails.
When I ride class one ebike in National Forest on roads... closed off to public vehicles, USFS and County personnel wave to me.
Such as roads to service repeater and broadcast towers.
I kinda ran into this when the Forest Service saw fit to require organized bicycle rides to get a permit to go through National Forests, even though they were on State roads not on National Forest roads (short answer ... they had no right to demand a permit).

I think whether motor vehicles (which includes e-bikes) are permitted on trails or roads depends on that particular Forest's "motor vehicle use map." I believe one is published for each National Forest, so you'd have to look up the map for your jurisdiction.

Forest service roads and trails are defined here.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/212.1
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Old 07-16-19, 11:16 AM
  #240  
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Thanks for that^^^^
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Old 07-16-19, 11:19 AM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Thanks for that^^^^
Yer welcome!

Here is where you can find the motor vehicle use maps for NFs in California.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...prd614063.html
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Old 07-16-19, 12:45 PM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
Yer welcome!

Here is where you can find the motor vehicle use maps for NFs in California.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...prd614063.html
I think is is also telling that some that are in absolute opposition to any E bikes are highly unlikely to be riding single track in our national forests.

But in truth does it really matter what others think? All that matters is what the consumer thinks and is willing to spend money on.

We we should be looking at market trends and asking ourselves why are E bikes gaining market share and why are traditional bikes staying pretty stagnate? I donít have the answer but I suspect it is new riders driving the changes. Take a look at the market forecast.

https://cyclingindustry.news/global-...ow-60-by-2025/
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Old 07-16-19, 01:40 PM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
OK, let us take it up a notch.
Notice this says "Trail Management"
Ebikes are not allowed on trails.... even a lot of push bikes are not allowed on USFS trails.
Forest service roads and fire roads are not trails.
When I ride class one ebike in National Forest on roads... closed off to public vehicles, USFS and County personnel wave to me.
Such as roads to service repeater and broadcast towers.
My point is that eBikes ARE NOT BICYCLES and they are being properly identified as a motor-vehicle. If the road allows motorized vehicles, then eBikes should be fine. It seems that they are now printing signs so people understand that they are NOT BICYCLES.

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Old 07-16-19, 01:51 PM
  #244  
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Our law is different in California.... which has already classified Class 1 ebikes.... pedal assist only.... as a bicycle.
South Carolina says they are motor vehicles.
USFS feds........ what are they going to update....
By regional land management they are all different.
Oregon says they are a bicycle, but regulated differently by region.
This is for now. Will assume changes will be made.
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Old 07-16-19, 01:57 PM
  #245  
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Glad I live in California, as class 1 does not make them faster than a human powered rider and requires pedaling, and it makes sense. I completely support class 1 being defined as bicycles. Any bike you don't have to pedal should be classed differently, and any bike that goes faster than a human powered bike should be classed differently, imo. That's what California does. It's obvious some people are not convinced; good thing I like the law where I live.
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Old 07-16-19, 02:09 PM
  #246  
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National Park Service definitions as defined in 36 C.F.R. 1.4

Bicycle means every device propelled solely by human power upon which a person or persons may ride on land, having one, two, or more wheels, except a manual wheelchair.

Motor vehicle means every vehicle that is self-propelled and every vehicle that is propelled by electric power, but not operated on rails or upon water, except a snowmobile and a motorized wheelchair.



When you see this in a National Park your eBike is NOT ALLOWED.
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Old 07-16-19, 02:09 PM
  #247  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
I think is is also telling that some that are in absolute opposition to any E bikes are highly unlikely to be riding single track in our national forests.

But in truth does it really matter what others think? All that matters is what the consumer thinks and is willing to spend money on.

We we should be looking at market trends and asking ourselves why are E bikes gaining market share and why are traditional bikes staying pretty stagnate? I donít have the answer but I suspect it is new riders driving the changes. Take a look at the market forecast.

https://cyclingindustry.news/global-...ow-60-by-2025/
I think the notion is that bicycles are inherently self regulating. Because it is human powered, there is a limited amount of tomfoolery you can do with it, and to get to the level where tomfoolery is possible, you have to earn it through greater conditioning. With that earning comes more experience, and hopefully, judgement. The average person can't pedal nearly the speed on a bicycle as they can with an e-bike.

I haven't seen e-bikes as a problem in my world, but I do understand why some object to hard-fought for infrastructure designed for human power being dedicated to motorized vehicles.

The growing e-bike market is no mystery to me. I think it is mostly new riders too. From what I see on a daily basis, it is mostly younger millenialish riders who want speed without all the work of pedaling. It's not people who cannot pedal ... it is people who don't want to. That's OK ... as I said earlier, cycling means different things to different people.

As I said, have no dog in this fight, so I really don't care what is good for the industry or not. I care what is good for bicycling.
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Old 07-16-19, 03:19 PM
  #248  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
The pedal assist switching mechanism is really just a throttle connected to the pedals.

How the pedal assist switch works:
  • It's made up of a circular array of magnets that trigger the motor to engage.
  • The faster you pedal the higher the voltage that is supplied to the motor.
  • No particular amount of force is read nor required for this triggering to occur.
Cadence sensors provide more power the faster you spin; no different than riding a regular bike. I don't apply any force when I ride my bike without the motor - I use a high cadence to propel myself (90+rpm). Maybe you get out there and mash, but that's poor technique. When I do use my motor, I still maintain a high cadence; I just go a little faster for the same effort.
Torque sensors actually measure input force.
Have you ever actually ridden an electric bike with a torque sensor? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 07-16-19, 03:29 PM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Regular bicycles are considered motor vehicles under the vehicle code in Ca.; that's why they don't have the right of way in crosswalks if you ride and you are required to follow the rules of the road.
That is not true. Bicycles are not only not considered to be motor vehicles, they are not even considered to be vehicles.

Bicycles are exclusively human powered: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=231

Bicycles are not "vehicles": https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=670.&lawCode=VEH

It's a common misconception though, as we ARE subject to the most of the same laws and have the same responsibilities.

E-bikes are defined as "electric bicycles" (and not bicycles, as they are not exclusively human powered) and fall into 3 classes: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=VEH
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Old 07-16-19, 03:53 PM
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