Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Roadies, not on board with assist - prepare to be C&V'd

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Roadies, not on board with assist - prepare to be C&V'd

Old 07-22-19, 01:25 PM
  #51  
Dan333SP
Serious Cyclist
 
Dan333SP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: RVA
Posts: 9,059

Bikes: 2013 Madone 3.1

Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5498 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
OTOH, one of our fastest riders has a 25 mile commute, each way. He bought an ebike, and now it's an hour commute and he doesn't arrive sweaty. That's on the road, not a MUP. I'm fine with that. Dice with the MVs like any motorbike.
Commuting and towing a kiddo trailer are two scenarios where I can personally see myself wanting an e-bike. I definitely don't see any issue with their proliferation other than the increased risk to MUP users or poorly organized group rides associated with people riding faster than their skill level.
Dan333SP is online now  
Likes For Dan333SP:
Old 07-22-19, 01:31 PM
  #52  
Jon T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: West Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,038

Bikes: '84 Peugeot PH10LE

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
I'm already a C&V'er so no BFD, But (I'll say it again) if I ever get to the point where I need an ebike or recumbent--someone just shoot me, please.
Jon
Jon T is offline  
Likes For Jon T:
Old 07-22-19, 01:35 PM
  #53  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,529
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked 201 Times in 133 Posts
A friend did an ebike conversion and rode it on a few group rides while he was recovering from surgery. We all got a kick when he would cruise past us up the hills, laughing all the way. He didn't pretend to be cycling, was just out with his friends. He would have had no part of contesting a sprint or posting his "ride" to Strava. I don't think any A group will view an e-rider as competition.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 01:37 PM
  #54  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 8,790

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 126 Posts
Cat1, Cat2, the hardcore enthusiasts (like me) won’t be threatened into e-territory - but just a smaller niche of adult cycling, with the inherent threat that the latest and greatest in new bike development is moving away from our primary interest - that is = you’ve been C&V’d.
been there, done that, no harm.....

Example:
i’ll guess the next best transmission improvement might be for the e-bike space. Where it can best be utilized.

tire technology for the 2inch+ crowd, minimized for the sub-42mm sector. Just in keeping with the ‘fatter is faster’ theory.....

Last edited by Wildwood; 07-22-19 at 02:40 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 01:50 PM
  #55  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 8,790

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Millions of people ride e-bikes every day.

A pro rides and e-bike and it is news.

Someone pass the cream and sugar.


-Tim-
When the Pro is the most popular guy on the race circuit + 3X world champ and the e-bike is a sleek CF racer from the (current) most successful racing shop of a major manufacturer (edit: company is Specialized) = maybe it is a big deal showing it on a TdF rest day. Some pretty successful industry execs thought it was a deal, they decked out more than 1 team.

Enjoy the coffee - White + sweet

Last edited by Wildwood; 07-22-19 at 02:23 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 02:03 PM
  #56  
jamesdak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 5,540

Bikes: G.L. Maillot Juane & Ventoux,Schwinn Circuit, Prologue,PDG Paramount,Paramount,Tempo,Jake The Snake,LeMond Zurich & Tourmelet,Giordana XL Super & Antares,Puegeot U08,Bob Jackson,Fuji S12-S,Opus III,Orbea Cabestany,Bianchi Campione,Basso Gap

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 97 Posts
Funny side note, I got called out a few weeks ago as I passed a couple of guys on this:



One yelled something about passing them on an Ebike so I drifted back and let him know it was a 20 year old UCI outlawed bike... but not an Ebike, LOL!
jamesdak is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 02:23 PM
  #57  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,174
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1056 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 121 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
For you maybe.
Current society = it's about winning, not about busting any nuts, especially your own.
So true. We got people doping in Fondos. All of those runners that cheat. Heck, look at all of the money spent in the cycling/tri industry to gain a small real or perceived advantage..............on the amateur and recreational level.

Now that the some of the mfgers have came to markets with their bikes/systems, the side industry of refining, evolving and making those systems work in a standard frame will take off as well. As the old saying goes, "If you and cheating, you ain't trying."

Last edited by seypat; 07-22-19 at 02:50 PM.
seypat is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 02:57 PM
  #58  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 8,790

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
So true. We got people doping in Fondos. All of those runners that cheat. Heck, look at all of the money spent in the cycling/tri industry to gain a small real or perceived advantage..............on the amateur and recreational level.
US Masters races (and we guess many non-pro 'competitions') are rife with people on 'life enhancement medications'. ie = I Survived the DEATH Ride, or the Death Valley Double Century, Hotter n Hell Hundred, Mt Washington Race

There is also the fact that it can be a fine line between doping and 3 week long/endurance sport nutrition. Ketones?

So we are NOT talking about that subject in this thread. The original comment, 'current society about winning', was not intended as a doping implication.

Shortcuts to 'successful cycling speeds', without months/years of specific training might be a strong e-bike attraction (with a sleek CF frame) to otherwise athletic or outdoor people. Especially anyone who might be inclined to hang with fast cycling associates. (edit: know anyone like that?)

Last edited by Wildwood; 07-22-19 at 03:32 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 02:59 PM
  #59  
August West
Senior Member
 
August West's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tumble down shack in Bigfoot County
Posts: 120

Bikes: Trek Domane SL6

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
An area I see these bikes as being beneficial is to elderly riders that may no longer be able to generate the output they once did.

At the gym I go to there is an older gentleman, probably in his 70's, who is there most days. I was told months ago he normally rides a bike there but had an injury or aliment and wasn't currently able to ride. Then, a three weeks ago he was back to riding as he left on his Trek commuter bike. Last week when I was him he was leaving on a brand spanking new Trek E-bike. They guy rides to the gym, busts his butt while he is there instead of spending 90% of his time with his face buried in his phone as I see about half the people do, then rides home again on his bike. More power to him. If it keeps him on the bike and active it is a good thing in IMHO. I plan to strike up a conversation next time I see him. Although the day I need assist is hopefully in the distant future, it will eventually arrive.
August West is offline  
Likes For August West:
Old 07-22-19, 03:25 PM
  #60  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,174
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1056 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 121 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
US Masters races (and we guess many other non-pro 'competitions') are rife with people on 'life enhancement medications'. ie = I Survived the DEATH Ride.

There is also the fact that it can be a fine line between doping and 3 week long/endurance sport nutrition. Ketones?

So we are NOT talking about that subject in this thread. The original comment, 'current society about winning', was not intended as a doping implication. Shortcuts to 'successful cycling speeds', without months/years of specific training seems a strong e-bike attraction to otherwise athletic or outdoor people.
Definitely just about bikes with some sort of assist.
seypat is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 04:37 PM
  #61  
berner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 3,533

Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 49 Posts
I predict the already awful obesity epidemic will only get worst and future health costs in America, already sky high, will rise accordingly.
berner is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 04:41 PM
  #62  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 8,790

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Definitely just about bikes with some sort of assist.

Not all bike or e-bike engines will be tuned to the same level.

With all the road bike claims out there - lighter, stiffer,...
Wait until the e-bike marketers take it to the next level...
Wildwood is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 04:58 PM
  #63  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,840
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 961 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by caloso View Post
The A rides I go on are pretty much all racers, with a definite skew to 1s and 2s. I don't see it happening.
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 05:45 PM
  #64  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,174
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1056 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 121 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
Wait till people start modifying those motors/systems just for the heck of it. My son attends a high school with an engineering specialty center. Their STEM First Robotics team ended this season ranked 4th at the world championships. They have a fully supported shop with more than enough technology and tools to do the job. CAD programs, CNC machines, 3D printers(one is a CF printer) etc, etc. But what they really have going for them is about 60 students with big brains and the interest and knowledge to do it. Also about 10 mentors that are electrical/mechanical engineers and do that sort of thing for a living. If I let them work on one for a couple of weeks it would come back a lot faster than before. The question would be how much would it cost me.
seypat is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 05:50 PM
  #65  
Elvo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,122
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
The popular mid and direct drive motors will take you well beyond 28 mph, maybe 35-40 mph. But most typical ebike riders are not capable of the cadence so they usually resort to throttle.
Elvo is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 05:56 PM
  #66  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,840
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 961 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
The popular mid and direct drive motors will take you well beyond 28 mph, maybe 35-40 mph. But most typical ebike riders are not capable of the cadence so they usually resort to throttle.
I don't think group rides are in danger of being infected by scooters or high powered e-bikes. No one wants to be a pariah. Like I said it's a non-issue.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 06:53 PM
  #67  
August West
Senior Member
 
August West's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tumble down shack in Bigfoot County
Posts: 120

Bikes: Trek Domane SL6

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
What is C&V?
Classics & Vintage - I think, maybe.
August West is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 07:28 PM
  #68  
downtube42
Senior Member
 
downtube42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,967

Bikes: Volae Team, '74ish Windsor Carrera Sport, Priority Eight, Nimbus MUni, Trek Roscoe 6

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times in 24 Posts
I think e-bikes are bringing a lot of people to cycling who would not be riding otherwise. Some for transportation, which IMO is a good thing - one less car.

As for sport cycling, we had a older cyclist show up regularly to a group TT. The group actually liked having him out there, riding a constant 25 MPH. Nobody considered him a competitor, just a target either to chase or stay ahead of.

I can see somebody screwing up a group ride, particularly if we get stealthy e-assist bikes.

One consequence of e-bikes will be more and more MUPS with posted speed limits.
downtube42 is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 08:14 PM
  #69  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 10,988
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1436 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.
As I said, 28 mph won't win me a sprint, but a chunk of that used only to make it easy for me to cruise up a solid climb that you then burn a few matches chasing after me and I'm going to be more rested and in a better spot to contest a sprint while you're gassed. Similarly, turn on assist at just the right time and maybe I can gap you off the back into a headwind at little cost to myself. I wouldn't personally do it, but I can see how someone might think that a stealth motor used very judiciously would give them that last little edge that they "need".
himespau is offline  
Likes For himespau:
Old 07-22-19, 08:51 PM
  #70  
Kimmo
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 8,284

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 559 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 64 Posts
How are stealth motors a thing? Is there some mad new tech I'm not aware of that can provide drive silently?
Kimmo is online now  
Old 07-22-19, 09:20 PM
  #71  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The Timbers of Fennario (CL77)
Posts: 4,916

Bikes: Steel

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 228 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The only place you see these is in museums now. Sad!

That is because of those opposing horizontal drop-outs.
wgscott is offline  
Likes For wgscott:
Old 07-22-19, 09:21 PM
  #72  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,840
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 961 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
As I said, 28 mph won't win me a sprint, but a chunk of that used only to make it easy for me to cruise up a solid climb that you then burn a few matches chasing after me and I'm going to be more rested and in a better spot to contest a sprint while you're gassed. Similarly, turn on assist at just the right time and maybe I can gap you off the back into a headwind at little cost to myself. I wouldn't personally do it, but I can see how someone might think that a stealth motor used very judiciously would give them that last little edge that they "need".
I just don't see it happening. All of the 'stealth' bikes top out at 28mph which won't help on a slight downhill, tailwind or sprint. I think they're great for commuting but don't think they belong in group rides. I have a Copenhagen wheel I occasionally use for commuting and don't think it would be very save riding in close proximity to others.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 09:35 PM
  #73  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 840

Bikes: 36" Unicycle

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
All of the 'stealth' bikes top out at 28mph
No, they don't.

A truly concealed motor would be turning the cranks the same as the rider does; the only way it would even "know" the actual road speed would be if it had a wheel sensor for that purpose in order to fit some legal category.
UniChris is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 09:39 PM
  #74  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,840
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 961 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
No, they don't.
Which ones don't? Trek, Specialized?
gregf83 is offline  
Old 07-22-19, 09:42 PM
  #75  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 840

Bikes: 36" Unicycle

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Which ones don't? Trek, Specialized?
Things sold by reputable domestic brands / dealers may be limited in stock configuration, but parts and imports don't have artificial limitations.

Hub motors aren't exactly stealth - the kinds of things that there are concerns with people actually cheating with are motors hidden inside the frame adding power to the existing drivetrain. Even with hub motors though, it would be a simple firmware modification.

This is the kind of thing that's often talked about in terms of really concealed motors:

https://www.vivax-assist.com/de/prod...assist_4-0.php

That is configured with drive gears in terms of cadence, not speed. And even if a system like that had a wheel sensor so it could be represented as cutting out at a certain actual speed, it would be easily fooled... if it's smart enough to shut off with no input from the wheel sensor, it would still be a trivial project to make a tiny microcontroller simulate an output at 2/3 of the actual wheel speed.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-22-19 at 10:48 PM.
UniChris is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.