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Confusion when trying to be nice.

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Confusion when trying to be nice.

Old 07-26-19, 12:45 PM
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Iride01
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Confusion when trying to be nice.

I was into mile 46 or so of my ride on the MUP yesterday. Not a lot of others out, but enough that I was actually being careful in areas where I couldn't see far enough ahead of me.

I saw that I was coming up on a cyclist in one section with some slow twists and there was a jogger ahead of him, all of us going the same direction. I soon figure out that we will all be together at the same time. So since the other cyclist is in front of me, then he is in the dominant position to me for passing the jogger. So I'm going to have to get behind the cyclist and wait my turn. At least that's what seems reasonable to me.

So I'm about to join up behind the cyclist and as I get close enough to announce my presence to him, he turns his head, sees me and puts on his brakes. I almost slam into him as we were in a slight turn and changing my line meant getting over on the other side of the trail into possible oncoming traffic. Thankfully there was none and I just road on by and passed both cyclist and jogger.

Not sure why this troubles me so much. I think I just have to vent. It it just annoying when cyclists, drivers and others don't see how not using their right-of-way or dominance of position. Giving that up just confuses and endangers me and other because now it creates a situation where unexpected things happen. It also certainly messes up all the planning I did for safety.

I suppose the other cyclist thought he was being nice by allowing me to go first.
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Old 07-26-19, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I was into mile 46 or so of my ride on the MUP yesterday. Not a lot of others out, but enough that I was actually being careful in areas where I couldn't see far enough ahead of me.

I saw that I was coming up on a cyclist in one section with some slow twists and there was a jogger ahead of him, all of us going the same direction. I soon figure out that we will all be together at the same time. So since the other cyclist is in front of me, then he is in the dominant position to me for passing the jogger. So I'm going to have to get behind the cyclist and wait my turn. At least that's what seems reasonable to me.

So I'm about to join up behind the cyclist and as I get close enough to announce my presence to him, he turns his head, sees me and puts on his brakes. I almost slam into him as we were in a slight turn and changing my line meant getting over on the other side of the trail into possible oncoming traffic. Thankfully there was none and I just road on by and passed both cyclist and jogger.

Not sure why this troubles me so much. I think I just have to vent. It it just annoying when cyclists, drivers and others don't see how not using their right-of-way or dominance of position. Giving that up just confuses and endangers me and other because now it creates a situation where unexpected things happen. It also certainly messes up all the planning I did for safety.

I suppose the other cyclist thought he was being nice by allowing me to go first.
I've been in this situation a few times recently, and I just explain "I'm going to let you pass first", before they have a chance to freak out about the double passing situation. It's actually worked quite well, even when the group I was waiting to let pass included a kid.
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Old 07-26-19, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I suppose the other cyclist thought he was being nice by allowing me to go first.
Textbook definition of a "nice-hole". i.e. another vehicle operator whose unexpected and unwarranted yielding of right of way as a "courtesy" ends up screwing everything up.
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Old 07-26-19, 03:11 PM
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Seems to be a theme lately.
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Old 07-26-19, 03:12 PM
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caloso
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Yes, yes, yes. Don't be nice, be predictable and safe.
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Old 07-26-19, 03:28 PM
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I approach that situation with caution, perhaps over-cautiously. Not only might they react randomly, but as often as not they'll split with oncoming pedestrians to pass or go for a "daring" pass with bikes coming at them. I try to stay way back from those situations, wait until there's no drama for me to pass the pedestrians and catch up with the other biker (if I do catch up) and pass all at once when it's clear.
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Old 07-26-19, 07:09 PM
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Just consider. Flip yourself.

You are about to pass but there is a wheel sucker behind you.

What do you do?

(Consensual wheel suck is ok.)

-mr. bill
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Old 07-27-19, 01:05 AM
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genec
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On MUPs... just clearly and loudly let people know what's happening. Why the silent treatment?

Slow down (just as you'd want a motorist to do for you ) give room, and, announce your intentions.

Headphone/earbuds are the only real impediment here.
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Old 07-27-19, 06:47 AM
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You probably surprised him. What does "close enough to announce my presence" mean to you? Around here, a lot of riders think it means 3 feet, which is way too close to announce. He probably intended to pass, but your closeness caused him to react in a way that you didn't anticipate. It's good that you are doing this sort of self-reflection - perhaps next time hang back a bit and allow things to progress without drama.
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Old 07-29-19, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
... It's good that you are doing this sort of self-reflection - perhaps next time hang back a bit and allow things to progress without drama.
This comment got me thinking about something else.

Here we are in the bike forums where all sorts of cyclists contemplate on their own experiences and ask for advice or opinions for confusing situations.

I just Googled to find out if there are similar forums for your everyday driver. There are discussion forums for truckers, uber drivers, and for drunk drivers.
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Old 07-30-19, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
Textbook definition of a "nice-hole". i.e. another vehicle operator whose unexpected and unwarranted yielding of right of way as a "courtesy" ends up screwing everything up.
A "nice-hole". I like that. I'll use that when I explain to people how to drive in Manhattan.

You do have to be assertive (not aggressive) and keep the flow going.
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Old 07-30-19, 10:08 AM
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I guess in the modern age, consideration and politeness has become intolerable.
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Old 07-30-19, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
Textbook definition of a "nice-hole". i.e. another vehicle operator whose unexpected and unwarranted yielding of right of way as a "courtesy" ends up screwing everything up.
as a bike commuter,i encounter something like this every single day. mostly at multi-way stop sign intersections. very often, a motorist will get to the intersection first, wait for me to come to my stop,and he'll sit there and wave me thru. i'll wave him thru right back, as he has the right-of-way. no, he'll keep waving. at that point, i just sit and wait him out, and when he finally moves on, i get this look of perplexity that i didn't take him on his offer. while i always recognize and appreciate the (presumed) courtesy, it is not welcome. he deviates from established traffic law, which is intended to provide predictability for everyone.
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Old 07-30-19, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I guess in the modern age, consideration and politeness has become intolerable.
no, not in this case. politeness and consideration DO NOT trump the rules of the road, which are designed for everyone's predictable behavior.
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Old 07-30-19, 02:36 PM
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I get the people being nice situation all the time. I have a busy road on one of the routes I take home. I have to cross the southbound lanes to the median then cross the northbound lanes. Its not that hard to cross even in rush hour but there always are people who stop and try to waive me along. I usually just wave them back through. While they are trying to be nice what they don't seem to understand is when they stop, they block my view of the second lane so I can't always tell what is coming and a driver coming up that second lane probably couldn't see me either.

They always seem surprised when I turn down their generosity but it really only delays me maybe 30 seconds to find a gap that i can easily see and safely cross. I cross at a proper crossing near a roundabout so traffic flows pretty well so them stopping actually impedes the flow of traffic and they aren't supposed to stop.
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Old 07-30-19, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
You probably surprised him. What does "close enough to announce my presence" mean to you? Around here, a lot of riders think it means 3 feet, which is way too close to announce. He probably intended to pass, but your closeness caused him to react in a way that you didn't anticipate. It's good that you are doing this sort of self-reflection - perhaps next time hang back a bit and allow things to progress without drama.
Basically, I'll slow way down in this situation to give me time to tell the other bicyclist exactly what I'm going to do. I think we're all so conditioned by not being able to communicate with drivers that we forget you can actually have a conversation with a fellow cyclist.

The hidden earbud problem is pretty bad, though.
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Old 07-30-19, 04:29 PM
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as a bike commuter,i encounter something like this every single day. mostly at multi-way stop sign intersections. very often, a motorist will get to the intersection first, wait for me to come to my stop,and he'll sit there and wave me thru. i'll wave him thru right back, as he has the right-of-way. no, he'll keep waving. at that point, i just sit and wait him out, and when he finally moves on, i get this look of perplexity that i didn't take him on his offer. while i always recognize and appreciate the (presumed) courtesy, it is not welcome. he deviates from established traffic law, which is intended to provide predictability for everyone.
I approach intersections on my bicycle and obey the right a way laws. Often motorists wait on me to stop and some try waiving me through when they are first at the stop. I am polite to them but refuse to go first. It appears they are afraid that I will not obey the law. This is very annoying to me.
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Old 07-31-19, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by beachball42 View Post
I get the people being nice situation all the time. I have a busy road on one of the routes I take home. I have to cross the southbound lanes to the median then cross the northbound lanes. Its not that hard to cross even in rush hour but there always are people who stop and try to waive me along. I usually just wave them back through. While they are trying to be nice what they don't seem to understand is when they stop, they block my view of the second lane so I can't always tell what is coming and a driver coming up that second lane probably couldn't see me either.

They always seem surprised when I turn down their generosity but it really only delays me maybe 30 seconds to find a gap that i can easily see and safely cross. I cross at a proper crossing near a roundabout so traffic flows pretty well so them stopping actually impedes the flow of traffic and they aren't supposed to stop.
not just that, but if the driver proceeds into the intersection after you've 'accepted the offer' to proceed (remember, he had the right of way ...) and hits you, guess what ? you're at fault. other witnesses may not see that he waved you thru, and just see that you went first when he got there first. THAT is the main reason i don't "accept the offer" ....
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Old 07-31-19, 12:32 PM
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OP - the solution: your bike ride was too long. 46 miles in and you had become irritable enough that a minor traffic jam on a shared path has you posting to the forum.
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Old 07-31-19, 01:01 PM
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I agree with LOUD on the MUP. Like just now, I saw my neighbor who always wears the same red hat walking along and rang my bell and yelled. "Gary! you're blocking the whole damn path!". His response was the always appropriate "God Damn bike riders! Go find a road!". Gave me a high five as I went past. That's how it's done, folks.
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Old 07-31-19, 01:48 PM
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I don't think this is at all the same as the "nicehole driver" situation--that occurs where there is a) a clear rule that gives the driver right of way and b) drivers aren't easy to communicate with.

All talk of "dominant position" aside, I don't think there is a commonly accepted or understood rule of which cyclist can pass first, the one closest to the jogger or the one coming up faster from behind. Even if there is, you're expecting the first cyclist to assume you share the same view of who is in the dominant position. If I see that someone is likely to start to pass the jogger long after I likely would have completed my pass of the cyclist, I'm not sure who actually has the dominant position in that case. I announce my move or lack thereof long before I get right behind the cyclist in this position because to do otherwise expects the rider in front of you to do a lot of mind-reading and on the fly evasion of your anticipated move.
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Old 07-31-19, 03:24 PM
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my apologies for being absent to my post. Last Saturday morning on the MUP of this post I wrecked and received a cracked skull, fractured orbit and of course a concussion along with other injuries. I don't have any memory of it nor for probably four to maybe eight minutes prior. Apparently I was alone and the only one involved. A couple walking found me and called for help.

I am expecting a somewhat full recovery. Plenty of med scans and tests in coming weeks. It will probably be some time before I return here to BF as thinking isn't easy, not that I was any good at it before <hah> .
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Old 07-31-19, 03:30 PM
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Also, the bell on my bike is loud enough to be heard a few hundred yards up the path. I try to give people on the path some time to figure out what they’re gonna do when I catch up. At 15mph closing speed 10 seconds is, what, 200 feet? I can stop from 15mph in about 15 feet. OP, how did you announce? Ring a bell? “On your left”? “On your left” has never been successful for me. A bell has.
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Old 07-31-19, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
my apologies for being absent to my post. Last Saturday morning on the MUP of this post I wrecked and received a cracked skull, fractured orbit and of course a concussion along with other injuries. I don't have any memory of it nor for probably four to maybe eight minutes prior. Apparently I was alone and the only one involved. A couple walking found me and called for help.

I am expecting a somewhat full recovery. Plenty of med scans and tests in coming weeks. It will probably be some time before I return here to BF as thinking isn't easy, not that I was any good at it before <hah> .
Have a speedy recovery!!!!!


Hard to get that badly injured on a MUP. From what you are saying, sounds like it will always be a mystery.

Closest call I've had to a serious injury on a mup was when an overhanging branch hit my helmet. @Witterings had a similar experience. Wonder if it was something like that.

Glad you're still with us. We'll still be here yammering when you feel ready to come back.
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Old 07-31-19, 05:23 PM
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Best wishes for a swift recovery.
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