rhm

(before)

(after)

This Brooks B17 Standard was in a car accident. The guy riding it is fine, but the frame got pretty badly bent.



It's a pretty recent model, I'm not sure how old, probably three or five years I guess. Its owner slathered the underside with a whole lot of Proofide, which I don't think is such a great idea, but it doesn't seem to have done much harm.

I drilled out all the rivets, replaced the frame with a chromed B17 frame from the 70's, and put in new brass rivets.



It seems fine now. Owner has already replaced it, so I'm going to put this in the 'for sale' forum.

rhm

A friend of mine has this Swallow with titanium frame, and he rides a lot... the leather stretched, so he tightened the tension nut a little... and it stretched more, and he tightened it some more... and after 20,000 miles of use the leather had stretched to the point he couldn't tighten the nut any more. I thought I had a photo of it as it came to me, but it didn't come out. Here's the tension bolt after I loosened the nut all the way:


After I drilled out the cantle plate rivets:


I cut off a crescent of leather from the back, almost an inch in the middle, tapering to a point at the ends, and punched holes for new rivets and the badge. I used the same brass rivets as on the last saddle. I had to cut the stitching at the ends.


I plugged the old rivet holes with a little of the leather I cut off; glued the plugs in with 'Goop,' and then soaked the back of the saddle in water enough to soften it, then curved the leather around the back of the cantle plate so it looks more or less like new.




I don't believe this one is going to last all that much longer. You can see a wide tear opening up at the left edge (see the third photo). I could probably tie the skirts together with a lot of stitching, but that would make the saddle uncomfortable. The owner thinks it's good for another 20,000 miles, well, we'll see!

nlerner

Hudson308 

That first example is a switch... swapping out the frame and keeping the leather! Nice work!

rhm

Private message quoted with permission:Copper would be nice! But I haven't found a source for big semi-hollow copper rivets. If you want to do copper, you'll want to get 'belt rivets' the kind sold with burrs (washers) though you won't use the burrs. It's hard to find them in a big enough size.




That's the rivet press I use, shown here with the very same saddle as in the first post. To use a press like this, you have to put the right dies in; a flush die for the head, and a die with the specific shape for a semi-hollow rivet.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivet-Squee...MAAOSw1ZBUyPx5
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivet-Squee...item414f7dc9ff

I have a third die that I ground to a slightly concave shape, which I use to give the cantle plate rivets a slightly convex shape (which I think you can see in the photos above). You can do all this with a hammer and punch... but it's easier to do a tidy job with a press.

The rivets on these saddles are brass semi-hollow rivets of the kind usually sold for brake and clutch repairs. I get them from this company:

https://rivetsinstock.com/rivets/bra...ch-rivets.html

The rivets I used on these are the size BR 8-6. BR for brass, 8 for the size (3/16" shank, 15/32" head), 6 for the length (6/16, AKA 3/8").

edit 'cuz it's not every day I get to answer a question before the post asking it

wschruba

@rhm Rudy, what machine do you use for setting the rivets?

(PS, it's been a while, but I am still interested in getting my B72 frame fixed--lots has happened in the last few years.)

*edit* (the dangers of posting in the same geographic time zone?)

Chombi1 

Bending back a saddle frame straight would not be easy as I found out just trying to flex the too wide apart rails on one of my Brooks Pros to try and install it on a seatpost clamp the rails are just a little bit over a rail's diameter too wide apart and I'm still having a difficult time with a C clamp to squeeze them together, let alone trying to get them sqeezed together enough to "cold set them to a narrower distance from each other. Dang thing just springs right back to where the factory errantly spaced the rails. No matter how much pressure I can exert with the C clamp to the point it was flying off the saddle because the clamp could not get any good grip on the rails anymore.
Only real way to fix such would be to remove the leather cover and clamp the frame on to a bench vise so you can get "heavy" tools on it to bend it back straight. Some heat should help......

rhm

Yes indeed, they are hard to bend. The one I took off, in the first post, I believe I have straightened it by using a small sledge hammer on an anvil. But I'll do some careful measurement before I use it.

If your rails are too wide, I can think of two things you might try.
1, just to get it into the saddle, try pulling the rails together with a hose clamp


2, place two pieces of scrap lumber, like 2x4's or something, about three inches apart, and put the back of the saddle over the gap, leather down. The ends of the rails should be right about at the edges of the lumber. Hit the cantle plate with a hammer directly between the rails. As you put a little bit of curvature into the middle of the cantle plate, the rails will come together. It won't take much.

crank_addict

Nice save on both but especially the Ti Swallow. You make it look so easy ----- which, is not!

gugie 

I have three @rhm saddles, all with custom side stamps. Here's RHM176:

markk900

bluehills3149

I have a B17 that needs new rivets but it's a bit worn so would rather not invest too much in it and the factory rivets are pretty pricey. Any idea if these would fit?

jamesj

That is awesome work! How much does it cost for a b17 frame repair? I bent mine in a crash and was going to send it off but its going to be about 130.

79pmooney

A tool that will narrow the seat rails to any width you want is a bench vise. I make no claim as to whether the seat will survive the experience, but those rails will get narrower, permanently.

The bench vise. The singular best, most versitle and most used tool I have ever owned. I bought my first house to have to have a place to install it.

Ben

rhm

Yes, those should work. Installing with a hammer and punch can be challenging.


Well, I charged $60, with shipping, for the B17 above....

BigChief 

Rudi just finished this vintage B66 for me. I wanted the old style frame for a 50s Raleigh project I'm working on and he turned a ruined old saddle into this beautiful restoration. This will add considerably to the charm of my project. What a great job.

rhm

Okay, well, I realize you're being mildly facetious here, and for sure, I know a bench vise can be a very useful tool. But the way saddle rails are attached to the cantle plate is not really a very strong joint. The rail is swaged with a lot of heat and a lot of pressure. Here's a screenshot of a video on Youtube:



If you just squeeze the rail together until something bends, you have to assume that both sides will bend evenly. But there's no way to know whether that will actually happen. Instead one side of the rail may bend while the other doesn't, or you may break the swage loose on one side and not the other... either way, not good.

If you want to bring the rails together, make sure you know exactly what you're bending and exactly where you're bending it. That's why I suggest bending the cantle plate at the center.

Tandem Tom

Rhm, than for your info!
I have done 3or4 B17'S rivet conversions with copper rivets. I made a spevspe anvil for the nose and another for the cantil. I do use the supplied washer on the underside as I want Abit more support for the peened rivet. I use a small ball peen hammer to give the rivet head the facetted look.

Tandem Tom

A follow-up. I started going this route ,to large rivets . because the smaller rivets started giving my wife saddle sores on each side. They were actually protruding up by 1/32". Plus I like the look!

obuckler

rhm

Those look great!

For an anvil, I use a cutoff I-beam that I got from a metal fabricator in Trenton. To them it's scrap metal, I gave the foreman a sixpack of beer for it. You're really supposed to put the head of the rivet against the anvil and peen out the other end with a punch; but in a pinch I've found I can do it backwards: that is, put the corner of the I-beam inside the nose piece and beat on the head of the rivet. It's not an ideal solution... but it works.

Another useful tool for the side rivets of the nose is a railroad spike. The offset of the head is enough to get around the bend.

obuckler

rhm

Yes, to your last point: he's probably tapping the edges of the rivet down as a last step.

The cantle plate rivets are not that difficult. The main challenge is finding something to hold the saddle at the right angle so you can hold the punch with one hand and the hammer from the other.

obuckler

trailangel

What is that on the underneath? That can't be Proofide.... looks like candle wax... maybe to keep the water spray off the leather?