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Wide, hookless, tubeless aluminum rim-brake rims! I wish!

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Wide, hookless, tubeless aluminum rim-brake rims! I wish!

Old 08-14-19, 12:22 PM
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pressed001 
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Wide, hookless, tubeless aluminum rim-brake rims! I wish!

So, the future of road rims is wider. I don't mean a measly 25mm outer width. I'm talking 30mm outer width AND tubeless/hookless compatible. This new wider-is-better isn't restricted for mountain bike only. However, road finds the sweet spot at 30mm outer width whereas mtb is at about 35mm inner width.

I've got a set of China-Carbon tubeless-hookless 30mm wide, 45mm deep rims on my disc road bike and they are absolutely wonderful. Only need 70psi, puncture protection through tubeless milk, more comfortable, 28mm tires which pump out to 31mm, weighs less than a 28mm tire with tube.

Now, I am sold on this type rims for road use and they are for sure the bomb-digity (3000km, no flats. Thanks Maxxis!). My next set will be a 300g low profile climbing rim using 29er mountain rims because, guess what, no one makes a rim like this for road use. Why not? Like I said, it's the shizzle. Where's the market? (1970)

Also, I've got a couple bikes which would be needing some aluminum rims but I just don't see the point in building a pair as there is NOTHING to be had in the aluminum market that is even close to being in a modern dimension. I mean, we're talking dinosaurs here. And don't mention some Archetype or Zipp 101 BS. If I wanted a 17mm internal width rim, no problem. But this aint 1985, folks! My rainy day road bike and my 26er MTB are absolutely stuck with old school skinny aluminum rims. These suck for tubeless BTW as they burp like it's going outta style at the lower pressures.

When will someone make a worthy aluminum rim-brake compatible rim? Waiting...

Maybe I should break down the rim brake bikes I've got and buy some disc frames. That seems to be the only way to get decent rims these days.
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Old 08-14-19, 12:32 PM
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There is no market because caliper brakes on road bikes won't work on rims any wider than ~28-30mm external
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Old 08-14-19, 12:34 PM
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Velocity Cliffhanger? Not hookless, but why is that important (honest question)?
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Old 08-14-19, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
There is no market because caliper brakes on road bikes won't work on rims any wider than ~28-30mm external
Cantilevers.
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Old 08-14-19, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Cantilevers.
how many modern rim brake road bikes come with cantis?
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Old 08-14-19, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
how many modern rim brake road bikes come with cantis?
Lots, if 30mm wide rim brake bikes are going to be a thing
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Old 08-14-19, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Lots, if 30mm wide rim brake bikes are going to be a thing
you are dreaming...

Canti is done for. Disc is taking over.
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Old 08-14-19, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pressed001 View Post
However, road finds the sweet spot at 30mm outer width....
Good to know. I've wondered when this would be resolved. Thanks!
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Old 08-14-19, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Velocity Cliffhanger? Not hookless, but why is that important (honest question)?
That's the closest the OP will ever get to what he's dreaming about. Maybe he could carefully file off the bead hooks if he thinks it's that crucial.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:39 PM
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I'm also curious as to why hookless. Pirelli directly states "not to be used on hookless rims" on their tubeless tires, and they're not the only one.

My CF wheels are 25mm external, and my 6800 calipers can barely open enough to fit them. Fit a 30 internal? Nah. Unh-uh. Not gonna happen.

Wanna run 30mm ID wheels? Go disc. Tons of wheels for you then.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:42 PM
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There is no advantage to hookless, except merketing wank and its cheaper to manufacture in a carbon rim.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:48 PM
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I thought the same thing. People who are saying “rim calipers can’t fit 30mm rims” are obviously wrong. All 2nd gen SLR-ev shimano brakes fit 30mm rims. I’m currently using that setup with great results.

But an equivalent aluminum wheel wouldn’t have to be 30mm wide. Carbon walls are about 2.5mm thicker than aluminum. Carbon hooked walls are an additional 1.5mm thicker than aluminum hookless rims. I would say there’s about a 4mm difference then.

So a 23mm internal width rim (what I have; something that is fairly usable for both 25 and 28mm nominal tires) would be only 26mm wide rather than 30. That is more than acceptable for most rim brake systems.

Unfortunately, disc brakes and carbon are taking over quickly- carbon makes a lot more sense once you get rid of the brake track. So I don’t think it makes too much sense to invest in R&D for rim brake alloy wheels. 100% of new gravel or all-road bikes are disc brakes, and the wide-rim proposition is a lot more compelling for them, so you’ll see plenty of wide rims there. But not for roadies unfortunately.

However, I personally would much rather see hooked rims on the market since hookless provides almost no advantage for aluminum besides the increased internal width, which isn’t worth the tradeoff imo. More 21mm ID hooked rims on the market would be cool. But the closest right now is the Belgium+, which has sat at the top for quite some time now. Not sure why nobody has caught up in the meantime

Last edited by smashndash; 08-14-19 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pressed001 View Post
So, the future of road rims is wider. I don't mean a measly 25mm outer width. I'm talking 30mm outer width AND tubeless/hookless compatible. This new wider-is-better isn't restricted for mountain bike only. However, road finds the sweet spot at 30mm outer width whereas mtb is at about 35mm inner width.

I've got a set of China-Carbon tubeless-hookless 30mm wide, 45mm deep rims on my disc road bike and they are absolutely wonderful. Only need 70psi, puncture protection through tubeless milk, more comfortable, 28mm tires which pump out to 31mm, weighs less than a 28mm tire with tube.

Now, I am sold on this type rims for road use and they are for sure the bomb-digity (3000km, no flats. Thanks Maxxis!). My next set will be a 300g low profile climbing rim using 29er mountain rims because, guess what, no one makes a rim like this for road use. Why not? Like I said, it's the shizzle. Where's the market? (1970)

Also, I've got a couple bikes which would be needing some aluminum rims but I just don't see the point in building a pair as there is NOTHING to be had in the aluminum market that is even close to being in a modern dimension. I mean, we're talking dinosaurs here. And don't mention some Archetype or Zipp 101 BS. If I wanted a 17mm internal width rim, no problem. But this aint 1985, folks! My rainy day road bike and my 26er MTB are absolutely stuck with old school skinny aluminum rims. These suck for tubeless BTW as they burp like it's going outta style at the lower pressures.

When will someone make a worthy aluminum rim-brake compatible rim? Waiting...

Maybe I should break down the rim brake bikes I've got and buy some disc frames. That seems to be the only way to get decent rims these days.
Rhynolite XL will do tubeless with rubber rim strips. And get yourself some rubber rim strips for your burping wheels. They fill the gap under the bead.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:07 PM
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Velocity Quill is a wide, aluminum rim brake rim. I am about to try a rim brake build with some on a Cannondale Headshok cantilever touring frame that currently has heavy Mavic touring rims and heavy, commuter type tires.





I'll have to check the outer width of the Quill rim. It is wider than an A23 I know that. But I know it isn't going to be 30 mm external, more like 25mm external. I would think running thin tubeless rim tape, you could mount tubed or tubeless tires up to very wide widths, whatever would clear the frame. I've had smashing success with latex tubes on my 23mm and 25mm width road bikes and think they may be less fussy than full tubeless so when I build up the wheelset with the Velocity Quills I will probably get Challenge Paris Roubaix 320 thread count 28 mm wide open tubulars and use the wider width latex inner tubes for 700c. Challenge makes a 30mm high thread count open tubular (can't remember its name right now) that would also fill the bill here.





I will check the HED Belgium + rim as well. These are tubeless ready, high quality and have a generous internal volume and could be built up for use with 30mm tires. I believe I heard that the current Dura Ace 9100 and Ultegra 8000 dual pivot sidepulls have been redesigned to permit increased tire clearance to handle up to fat 28 mm tires. Not sure if they can handle 30mm though. Obviously if you are running cantilever brakes, tire width is not limited by the calipers, only by frame clearance.

Last edited by masi61; 08-14-19 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I thought the same thing. People who are saying “rim calipers can’t fit 30mm rims” are obviously wrong. All 2nd gen SLR-ev shimano brakes fit 30mm rims. I’m currently using that setup with great results.

But an equivalent aluminum wheel wouldn’t have to be 30mm wide. Carbon walls are about 2.5mm thicker than aluminum. Carbon hooked walls are an additional 1.5mm thicker than aluminum hookless rims. I would say there’s about a 4mm difference then.

So a 23mm internal width rim (what I have; something that is fairly usable for both 25 and 28mm nominal tires) would be only 26mm wide rather than 30. That is more than acceptable for most rim brake systems.

Unfortunately, disc brakes and carbon are taking over quickly- carbon makes a lot more sense once you get rid of the brake track. So I don’t think it makes too much sense to invest in R&D for rim brake alloy wheels. 100% of new gravel or all-road bikes are disc brakes, and the wide-rim proposition is a lot more compelling for them, so you’ll see plenty of wide rims there. But not for roadies unfortunately.

However, I personally would much rather see hooked rims on the market since hookless provides almost no advantage for aluminum besides the increased internal width, which isn’t worth the tradeoff imo. More 21mm ID hooked rims on the market would be cool. But the closest right now is the Belgium+, which has sat at the top for quite some time now. Not sure why nobody has caught up in the meantime
He's talking about 30mm internal MTB rims it seems, which is like 34ish mm external
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Old 08-14-19, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
There is no advantage to hookless, except merketing wank and its cheaper to manufacture in a carbon rim.
Well, the (rotating) rims are lighter, and more impact resistant without hooks. Not having them frees up internal width, ballooning your tires which improves ride quality without a weight penalty.
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Old 08-15-19, 12:17 AM
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The hook is there for a reason. To interlock with the bead, to make the tyre not blow off the rim. Especially a road pressure. The rest is just wanking possible theoretical advantages to hide the real reason, - they want to save cost and not machine the hook. Im not EVER getting a hookless road rim.
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Old 08-15-19, 12:35 AM
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I've been riding hookless road rims for years. I've only died 3 times from it. 🙃
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Old 08-15-19, 01:04 AM
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You do you, but you may want to investigate before proceeding with you project. Not all mtb rims a speced for road pressures and several road TL tyres are to be used with hooked rims only.

Last edited by Racing Dan; 08-15-19 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 08-15-19, 08:55 AM
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I'll pass on hookless, thanks. Too limiting regarding what air pressure I can run. Honestly, I don't get it. It just seems like the rim is crippled for no reason.
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Old 08-15-19, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
He's talking about 30mm internal MTB rims it seems, which is like 34ish mm external
I'm talking 30mm outer width AND tubeless/hookless compatible.”

30mm ID would require 32mm tires at least. Real width of the tire would probably come out to 34 - 35mm. There aren’t many performance tires in size 32mm besides the GP5k. There aren’t many disc brake race bikes that could clear that, let alone rim brake bikes.
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Old 08-15-19, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
There is no advantage to hookless, except merketing wank and its cheaper to manufacture in a carbon rim.
+1, but there are disadvantages.
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Old 08-15-19, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
You do you, but you may want to investigate before proceeding with you project. Not all mtb rims a speced for road pressures and several road TL tyres are to be used with hooked rims only.
It's not new project, I've been doing this for 2 or 3 years. With road rims. Apparently I'm getting old enough that it's hard to remember this stuff. It's annoying that my tire selection is limited, but there are great tires available for tubeless, hookless setups, and I've found ones I really like. Never even burped air, at least noticably, and I'm anal about this stuff.
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Old 08-15-19, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
There is no market because caliper brakes on road bikes won't work on rims any wider than ~28-30mm external
This is incorrect. My sram apex caliper set clears my 30mm wide rims with 28mm (31mm mounted) maxxis padrones. Also my Kuota Concept brakeset clears the wide setup even better.

Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Velocity Cliffhanger? Not hookless, but why is that important (honest question)?
For me hookless mounts far more securely than hooked rims. This is because the hookless rims have a raised groove on both sides of the rim where the bead then sits. And yes, the lack of the hook does help keep the inner width wider and helps spread the tire out more nicely. At lower pressures this is great. Don't forget that I am running only 70psi here! No more is required at my weight (65kg).

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I'm also curious as to why hookless. Pirelli directly states "not to be used on hookless rims" on their tubeless tires, and they're not the only one.
The Pirelli's have a non-kevlar bead which is designed "for easy mounting." This tells me that it is softer and more plyable than a kevlar or carbon bead and is also why it should not be used in conjunction with a hookless rim.

Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
But an equivalent aluminum wheel wouldn’t have to be 30mm wide. Carbon walls are about 2.5mm thicker than aluminum. Carbon hooked walls are an additional 1.5mm thicker than aluminum hookless rims. I would say there’s about a 4mm difference then.

So a 23mm internal width rim (what I have; something that is fairly usable for both 25 and 28mm nominal tires) would be only 26mm wide rather than 30. That is more than acceptable for most rim brake systems.
Good point. I need to keep this in mind when considering an aluminum rim. Maybe one of the current rims on the market would be worth trying.

Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I'm talking 30mm outer width AND tubeless/hookless compatible.”

30mm ID would require 32mm tires at least. Real width of the tire would probably come out to 34 - 35mm. There aren’t many performance tires in size 32mm besides the GP5k. There aren’t many disc brake race bikes that could clear that, let alone rim brake bikes.
Yeah, the limit for road bikes is really at about 30mm outer-width. Any wider and you're not gaining anything. For MTB the inner-width sweet spot is at 35mm. That would be outer-width 40mm or so. But the advantages between 30 and 35mm MTB inner-width is only very slightly in favor of the 35.
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Old 08-15-19, 04:19 PM
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70 PSI sounds like a lot for that rim-tire combination. I am using nominal 25 mm tires on 21 mm ID rims and inflating them, per the rim manufacturer’s instructions, to the mid 60s. I weigh 66 kg.
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