Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Repacked Rear Hub Not Smooth

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Repacked Rear Hub Not Smooth

Old 07-06-19, 08:14 AM
  #1  
Mr_Pickles3
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Devon, UK
Posts: 5

Bikes: Cube Attain Disk Pro, Peugeot UO-10, Claud Butler GB Tourer1970s

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Repacked Rear Hub Not Smooth

Hi! First post on this site

Im going slightly mad at the moment: Iíve tried repacking three hubs different now, all with the same results. Today Iíve been repacking a hub which was very smooth beforehand as the LBS man recommended it, but it is now scratchy and coarse feeling when spun in the hands. The hub in question is only a few months old and is cup-and-cone.

Initially, I put loads of grease in (as with the other two ďtestĒ ones that I attempted), with the result being a scratching/catchy hub unless I adjust the cones until there is play (which is obviously no good). So, thinking the problem might be too much grease, I cleaned it out and repacked it again with less (so the bearings are just held in place by the grease). However, the hub still feels scratchy/catchy, no matter now tight or loose I adjust it. Itís so annoying!

Iím using new cones and bearings with a non-bent solid axle, and the races are still in great condition (as expected after only a few months) so Iím at a loss as to what Iím doing wrong. I know itís not going to be perfectly smooth, but currently the axle either catches or it feels Ďrumblyí when spinning the wheel.

Is is there anything Iím doing wrong? Any suggestions at this stage would be very appreciated!
Mr_Pickles3 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 08:19 AM
  #2  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,706

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1308 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 46 Posts
Why would you change the cones and bearings on a hub that is only a few months old?
Your skills may be in question.
I cannot watch what you are doing.
trailangel is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 08:25 AM
  #3  
Mr_Pickles3
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Devon, UK
Posts: 5

Bikes: Cube Attain Disk Pro, Peugeot UO-10, Claud Butler GB Tourer1970s

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The guy at the LBS reckoned they were rough and needed investigating. They were generic wheels so I saw where he was coming from. Still, they shouldn’t be rougher than when I started! I’m following very book/online guilde that I’ve found about it, so that’s why I’m not sure what’s going on. I thought the “test” hubs could have knackered races as they were old wheels, so decided that the real test would be if the same thing happened with the new wheels.
Mr_Pickles3 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 08:28 AM
  #4  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,706

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1308 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 46 Posts
Adjust them better. It's the slightest turn on a wrench between rough and smooth.
trailangel is offline  
Likes For trailangel:
Old 07-06-19, 08:33 AM
  #5  
Mr_Pickles3
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Devon, UK
Posts: 5

Bikes: Cube Attain Disk Pro, Peugeot UO-10, Claud Butler GB Tourer1970s

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
As I mentioned, I can’t find a spot where they’re smooth where there’s no play. I’ve spent an hour trying to do it now with no success
Mr_Pickles3 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 09:00 AM
  #6  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,386

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 40 Posts
Are you using caged bearings? Perhaps you installed the cages backwards. The open side of the cage goes toward the cone. Long shot - are the bearing balls all the same size? If so, are they the proper size for the hub?

Re: cone adjustment - a bit too loose is better than a bit too tight. A tiny,tiny amount of play is ok
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 09:22 AM
  #7  
dsbrantjr
Senior Member
 
dsbrantjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 6,303

Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 75 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Long shot - are the bearing balls all the same size?
Do not mix balls from different lots, or new with used; the size variation within lots is much less than from lot to lot. If the balls are not closely matched only the largest few will take the load
dsbrantjr is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 09:47 AM
  #8  
masi61
Senior Member
 
masi61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,119

Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 14 Posts
You mention that they are solid axles. Just curious about the threads - are they coarse or fine? When you tighten the cones, is there any resistance from the axle threads. If they are poorly cut threads on the axle or poorly tapped threads in the cones, it will make your job much more difficult. If they are fine thread and sharply cut like on old Dura Ace 7400 hubs, you can achieve that perfect (near) zero play and feeling buttery at the same time.

Maybe post a picture of the hub showing the axle, cones, spacers and locknuts. Show it disassembled so we can see what the bearing look like. And just to be clear - are you using the proper size cone wrench and a proper size metric wrench for the locknut? This is important!

Also, since you aren't near your goal of smoothness yet, it should still be mentioned that once you get the play out of the bearings and still have smoothness, your final preloading of the bearings can be done dynamically with the wheelhub bolted in the frame. Often, bearings that were perfectly adjusted while off the bike will now be too tight, requiring that the cones be backed out less than 1/4 turn with 2 cone wrenches. You can unlock the locknuts for this step or just leave them locked and just use 2 cone wrenches (one on each cone - so same size) and back one of them off counterclockwise ever so slightly.
masi61 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 10:16 AM
  #9  
dsbrantjr
Senior Member
 
dsbrantjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 6,303

Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 75 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Often, bearings that were perfectly adjusted while off the bike will now be too tight, requiring that the cones be backed out less than 1/4 turn with 2 cone wrenches. You can unlock the locknuts for this step or just leave them locked and just use 2 cone wrenches (one on each cone - so same size) and back one of them off counterclockwise ever so slightly.
Way, way less than 1/4 turn. Likely less than 1 degree. I set mine up with the locknut slightly tight but still movable, then make the final adjustment by tightening the cone or locknut, depending upon needing looser or tighter adjustment, while holding the other still, until they are finally locked and adjusted. You need to kind of creep up on it. It is difficult to describe, perhaps others here will describe it better.
Or these guys:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/...djustment.html

Damaged or lower-quality parts may never be truly smooth even when properly adjusted.
dsbrantjr is offline  
Likes For dsbrantjr:
Old 07-06-19, 11:22 AM
  #10  
Brocephus
Professional amateur
 
Brocephus's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ga.
Posts: 580

Bikes: Does a Big Wheel count ?

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 61 Posts
First, can you tell us exactly what wheels we're talking about here? ( mtn or road? Brand/model of hub?)



Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
However, the hub still feels scratchy/catchy, no matter now tight or loose I adjust it. It’s so annoying!
I've successfully done a number of cone/bearing hubs over the years, but I recently tried re-packing an old set of Wellgo pedals, and ran into the same issue. No matter what I do, it's catchy/grindy/rough.....just wrong. Even if I leave some noticeable play.
I have no clue what's up here, but it sounds just like what you've run into.



Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
Today I’ve been repacking a hub which was very smooth beforehand as the LBS man recommended it, but it is now scratchy and coarse feeling when spun in the hands.
If they were near new, and "very smooth", why did you overhaul them?

Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
Initially, I put loads of grease in (as with the other two “test” ones that I attempted), with the result being a scratching/catchy hub unless I adjust the cones until there is play (which is obviously no good). So, thinking the problem might be too much grease, I cleaned it out and repacked it again with less (so the bearings are just held in place by the grease). !
I was going to ask if you over-greased them, because I've observed you can cram too much in there, but it seems you've addressed this already.
Also, are you 100% positive you haven't misplaced a bearing ? (I've been on my hands and knees waving a big retrieval magnet over the carpet, more than a few times, LOL ! And not just for hub bearings, but gun,guitar, and other microscopic parts.)


Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
These were generic wheels.
I don;t blame you for servicing them, but I wouldn't be investing any money on a set of generic OEM wheels (if possible, I just assume my 200 lb self is gonna bust some generic spokes, since it's happened a few times, so I don't give them the chance anymore, I just replace them right off with something better. BicycleWheelWarehouse, does some very solid wheelsets, surprisingly inexpensively. Their most economical stuff naturally ain;t gonna win any low-weight competitions, but they can hook you up some robust, name-brand rims, laced up with Swiss DT's, to some XT or 105 hubs, for well under $200 delivered.
It's worth consideration of these rims don't fall into line.
As mentioned above, very fine adjustment increments can make a big difference, and it can take quite a few tries to get them where you want them.
Also, keep in mind that the force of a QR clamped down actually bends the axle a small amount. So a slightly loose hub, can tighten down perfectly, or a perfectly adjusted hub ( off the bike), can end up too tight, once clamped into the QR.
Brocephus is online now  
Old 07-06-19, 11:42 AM
  #11  
speedevil 
I never finish anyth
 
speedevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Western KY
Posts: 1,009

Bikes: 2008 Merckx LXM, 2003 Giant XTC mtb, 2001 Lemond Alpe d'Huez, 1997 Lemond Zurich, 1989 Cannondale ST, 198? Masi Nuovo Strada, 1984 Pinarello Turismo

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
Iím using new cones and bearings with a non-bent solid axle, and the races are still in great condition
If the axle is solid, there can't be a QR problem here. So we're talking about a solid axle, held in place with nuts on the outside of the dropouts. Not top of the line, but should be perfectly serviceable for a long time. On-the-road tire/tube repairs are a bit more complicated, but that's not a topic here.

My guess would be that tightening the outer nut is cause the cones to move inward on the axle, tightening the bearing balls between the cone and the race.

To do this properly, you'll need to use a cone wrench to hold the cone in place while you tighten the outer nut. But you have to choose a side that will be tightened first (the "fixed" side), and then do that. Then adjust the opposite cone (the "adjustable" cone) to get the play out. Now, since one side of the axle is firmly clamped into it's dropout, hold the "adjustable" cone with a wrench while you tighten the outside nut.

That should do it, unless there is some fault with the cups, cones, or bearings.
__________________
Dale, NL4T
speedevil is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 12:30 PM
  #12  
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: 2016 Fuji Tread

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
...Re: cone adjustment - a bit too loose is better than a bit too tight. A tiny,tiny amount of play is ok
I disagree. Any play at all puts all the load on just a couple of ball bearings and leads to failure. Ideal adjustment has all BBs contacting the races at all times. There was a long thread a few months ago about bearing preload, so we don't need to go into that here. Look it up if you're interested.

Use this guy's method for final adjustment:
It works.
andrewclaus is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 12:35 PM
  #13  
blamester
Blamester
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ireland
Posts: 467

Bikes: Peugeot teamline

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
You will never get them perfect.
And after riding them for a while they will adjust themselves they almost always do.
Did you notice anything while you where riding the bike?
After an hour of adjustment you know where the best spot is.
There is grease in there so you know thats ok.
Ride the bike and keep an eye on them.
That is as good as it will get.
blamester is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 02:20 PM
  #14  
Mr_Pickles3
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Devon, UK
Posts: 5

Bikes: Cube Attain Disk Pro, Peugeot UO-10, Claud Butler GB Tourer1970s

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Are you using caged bearings? Perhaps you installed the cages backwards. The open side of the cage goes toward the cone. Long shot - are the bearing balls all the same size? If so, are they the proper size for the hub?

Re: cone adjustment - a bit too loose is better than a bit too tight. A tiny,tiny amount of play is ok

I'm just using loose bearings at the moment, but thank you for the suggestion I was initially using the old bearings with tow new ones (a couple old ones fell on the floor and got dirty so I thought it best t replace them), but decided to follow dsbrantjr's advice and replace all of them with new bearings from the same bag to make sure this wasn't the problem

Originally Posted by [color=#222222
You mention that they are solid axles. Just curious about the threads - are they coarse or fine? When you tighten the cones, is there any resistance from the axle threads. If they are poorly cut threads on the axle or poorly tapped threads in the cones, it will make your job much more difficult.
The threads don't seem to be a problem; the cones screw on with no resistance. And I am using proper cone wrenches and spanners, so I'm confident it's not a tool issue! Buying the stuff to do it myself was supposed to save me money by not needing to go to the LBS but it's not working so far
Mr_Pickles3 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 02:35 PM
  #15  
Mr_Pickles3
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Devon, UK
Posts: 5

Bikes: Cube Attain Disk Pro, Peugeot UO-10, Claud Butler GB Tourer1970s

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by speedevil View Post
If the axle is solid, there can't be a QR problem here. So we're talking about a solid axle, held in place with nuts on the outside of the dropouts. Not top of the line, but should be perfectly serviceable for a long time. On-the-road tire/tube repairs are a bit more complicated, but that's not a topic here.

My guess would be that tightening the outer nut is cause the cones to move inward on the axle, tightening the bearing balls between the cone and the race.

To do this properly, you'll need to use a cone wrench to hold the cone in place while you tighten the outer nut. But you have to choose a side that will be tightened first (the "fixed" side), and then do that. Then adjust the opposite cone (the "adjustable" cone) to get the play out. Now, since one side of the axle is firmly clamped into it's dropout, hold the "adjustable" cone with a wrench while you tighten the outside nut.

That should do it, unless there is some fault with the cups, cones, or bearings.
Originally Posted by Brocephus View Post
First, can you tell us exactly what wheels we're talking about here? ( mtn or road? Brand/model of hub?)




I've successfully done a number of cone/bearing hubs over the years, but I recently tried re-packing an old set of Wellgo pedals, and ran into the same issue. No matter what I do, it's catchy/grindy/rough.....just wrong. Even if I leave some noticeable play.
I have no clue what's up here, but it sounds just like what you've run into.




If they were near new, and "very smooth", why did you overhaul them?


I was going to ask if you over-greased them, because I've observed you can cram too much in there, but it seems you've addressed this already.
Also, are you 100% positive you haven't misplaced a bearing ? (I've been on my hands and knees waving a big retrieval magnet over the carpet, more than a few times, LOL ! And not just for hub bearings, but gun,guitar, and other microscopic parts.)



I don;t blame you for servicing them, but I wouldn't be investing any money on a set of generic OEM wheels (if possible, I just assume my 200 lb self is gonna bust some generic spokes, since it's happened a few times, so I don't give them the chance anymore, I just replace them right off with something better. BicycleWheelWarehouse, does some very solid wheelsets, surprisingly inexpensively. Their most economical stuff naturally ain;t gonna win any low-weight competitions, but they can hook you up some robust, name-brand rims, laced up with Swiss DT's, to some XT or 105 hubs, for well under $200 delivered.
It's worth consideration of these rims don't fall into line.
As mentioned above, very fine adjustment increments can make a big difference, and it can take quite a few tries to get them where you want them.
Also, keep in mind that the force of a QR clamped down actually bends the axle a small amount. So a slightly loose hub, can tighten down perfectly, or a perfectly adjusted hub ( off the bike), can end up too tight, once clamped into the QR.
The wheels are some "NOS" chromed steel ones for my 1970s classic Peugeot bike...which have been pretty rubbish from day one (loose spokes, not true, etc). They've been fine for a few months though after (a different) LBS set them up for me. The reason I decided to overhaul them was because recently my new LBS guy was very convinced that they were rough/needed looking at, and I'd read that it wasn't that much of a difficult job/I heard new hubs sometimes lacked grease which I may as well address by putting new stuff in. I think he might have been talking rubbish though And I'm not missing any bearings - the same number have gone back in as came out!

At the moment, the best I can do where there is no "binding" at gives quite a lot of play. I need to fit a new freewheel this week, so I'll have another go then using some of the methods suggested here. I'm not expecting perfect smoothness, but I'm guessing that there should be no obvious binding at all, or "rumble" feelings?
Mr_Pickles3 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 02:45 PM
  #16  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,845
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Do not mix balls from different lots, or new with used; the size variation within lots is much less than from lot to lot. If the balls are not closely matched only the largest few will take the load
You are kidding aren't you. The tolerances between batches of quality bearings so small as to be insinificant.


From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: How Bearings are Made Date: 22 Nov 1999 23:05:20 GMT Roger (who?) writes: > Did you know you should only ever use ball bearings from the same > batch in one side of a race? They're not exactly the same size > between batches. Never simply replace that naughty one that bounced > into the corner of the garage - replace the other 10 (or whatever) > too!

You are making this up. The tolerance between bearing balls is so small as to be below a small fraction of the elastic compliance of the steel bearing. Besides, the races of bicycle bearings are so rough that a tight bearing feels lumpy. In high precision bearings used on computer disk storage devices, preload causes a smooth viscous drag. Even for these bearings the balls are not identical but are made to a prescribed tolerance. I don't believe I understand what you mean by the same batch. Each bearing is not made in the same finishing process as the others in a shipment of balls. Jobst Brandt <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

Last edited by davidad; 07-06-19 at 02:52 PM.
davidad is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 02:48 PM
  #17  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,845
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Bike cups are not necessarily perfect and you could have a slight lumpy feel when adjusting with a preload as is needed with a solid axle.
davidad is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 03:13 PM
  #18  
dsbrantjr
Senior Member
 
dsbrantjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 6,303

Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 75 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad View Post
You are kidding aren't you. The tolerances between batches of quality bearings so small as to be insinificant.
Actually the difference is significant enough that the ABMA STD-10 specification allows (for Grade 25) twice the tolerance within a shipment to that of a single lot.

That difference, 100 microinches (a 10th of a thousandth, 0.0001")vs 50 microinches, is easily measurable and can be significant if one wants "buttery-smooth" running.

Ball Size Grade Tolerance Definitions | Hartford Technologies
dsbrantjr is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 03:43 PM
  #19  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,386

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
I disagree. Any play at all puts all the load on just a couple of ball bearings and leads to failure. Ideal adjustment has all BBs contacting the races at all times. There was a long thread a few months ago about bearing preload, so we don't need to go into that here. Look it up if you're interested.

Use this guy's method for final adjustment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMhQlqg7TDA It works.
Well, I do agree with you. I use the method recommended by the Barnett Bicycle Institute myself. However my experience helping novice DIYers is that most adjust them much too tight or much too loose. Having a target a smooth feeling axle, if they can get there but only with a barely (and I mean barely) perceptible amount of play, I say good enough for most.

The video you shared is good, but gives no sense of what this experienced mechanic is feeling when he says too tight or too loose.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 03:48 PM
  #20  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,386

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad View Post
You are kidding aren't you. The tolerances between batches of quality bearings so small as to be insinificant.


From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: How Bearings are Made Date: 22 Nov 1999 23:05:20 GMT Roger (who?) writes: > Did you know you should only ever use ball bearings from the same > batch in one side of a race? They're not exactly the same size > between batches. Never simply replace that naughty one that bounced > into the corner of the garage - replace the other 10 (or whatever) > too!

You are making this up. The tolerance between bearing balls is so small as to be below a small fraction of the elastic compliance of the steel bearing. Besides, the races of bicycle bearings are so rough that a tight bearing feels lumpy. In high precision bearings used on computer disk storage devices, preload causes a smooth viscous drag. Even for these bearings the balls are not identical but are made to a prescribed tolerance. I don't believe I understand what you mean by the same batch. Each bearing is not made in the same finishing process as the others in a shipment of balls. Jobst Brandt <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>
Wow, Jobst Brandt is a guru and I accept most everything he says. Nevertheless, I have to say that, as @dsbrantjr recommends, I never mix bearings from different batches. OCD at work I guess. I don't have a way to measure the tolerance between batches so I reckon I'll give a nod to Jobst and then do what I do.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 05:46 PM
  #21  
grizzly59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would look at the cones. The replacement cones from Shimano were all very good, but the others for house brand hubs not so much. I have had to chuck a dummy axle in a drill, mount a cone, and sand the running surface with some approx. 800 grit 3M auto body paper and my fingers to smooth cones out to where they should be.

You can check bearing balls with a good micrometer and pick a set good enough for you.
grizzly59 is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 08:10 PM
  #22  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,845
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Actually the difference is significant enough that the ABMA STD-10 specification allows (for Grade 25) twice the tolerance within a shipment to that of a single lot.

That difference, 100 microinches (a 10th of a thousandth, 0.0001")vs 50 microinches, is easily measurable and can be significant if one wants "buttery-smooth" running.

Ball Size Grade Tolerance Definitions | Hartford Technologies
In other words, much ado about nothing.
davidad is offline  
Old 07-06-19, 10:24 PM
  #23  
3alarmer
******
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 17,329

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14743 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 91 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
As I mentioned, I canít find a spot where theyíre smooth where thereís no play. Iíve spent an hour trying to do it now with no success
Originally Posted by Mr_Pickles3 View Post
I'm just using loose bearings at the moment, but thank you for the suggestion I was initially using the old bearings with tow new ones (a couple old ones fell on the floor and got dirty so I thought it best t replace them), but decided to follow dsbrantjr's advice and replace all of them with new bearings from the same bag to make sure this wasn't the problem



The threads don't seem to be a problem; the cones screw on with no resistance. And I am using proper cone wrenches and spanners, so I'm confident it's not a tool issue! Buying the stuff to do it myself was supposed to save me money by not needing to go to the LBS but it's not working so far
...with a loose bearing hub, the most common cause of this issue you describe is either one too many bearings added to the race, or one of the bearings drops out of the race and doubles up as you tighten the cones. The grease is sticky enough to hold them initially, but you still need to be pretty careful as you tighten both cones to trap the bearings between cone and race.

But it's just a guess. Some of the more modern stuff on the lower end of quality feels rough or loose with no possible optimal adjustment point in between.
3alarmer is online now  
Old 07-07-19, 06:56 AM
  #24  
Kovkov
Senior Member
 
Kovkov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 298

Bikes: 1957 Alpa Special, 1963 Condor Delta, 1967 Tigra Sprint, 1977 Oltenia, 1987 Mondia, 1965 Staco de luxe, 1969 Amberg

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 14 Posts
Try a new axle. I had the same symptoms several times and even if the axle appeared straight, after installing a new one everything was fine.
Kovkov is offline  
Old 07-07-19, 02:06 PM
  #25  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 5,108

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
Liked 62 Times in 53 Posts
Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Actually the difference is significant enough that the ABMA STD-10 specification allows (for Grade 25) twice the tolerance within a shipment to that of a single lot.

That difference, 100 microinches (a 10th of a thousandth, 0.0001")vs 50 microinches, is easily measurable and can be significant if one wants "buttery-smooth" running.

Ball Size Grade Tolerance Definitions | Hartford Technologies
Define "shipment" and "lot". Who actually thinks, that when purchased in the small amounts on a personal consumer level, the repackaged quantity they are getting is somehow from the same "lot"? And c'mon, it's a bicycle, maybe a couple hundred pound load and a few hundred rpm isn't really requiring precision bearings. I suspect most failures are due to lack of maintenance, lack of lube, contamination, or misadjustment, not the precision of the component.


Which lot is mine?

dedhed is offline  
Likes For dedhed:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.